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Author | Topic: What we must accept if we accept evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
robinrohan Inactive Member |
The idea here is to study what evolution necessarily includes. I've identified several corollary concepts. If you accept TOE, you must also accept the following:
1. materialism2. determinism 3. atheism 4. and lastly, of course, nihilism. I'm interested in #1 and #2 primarily. My point about the connection between atheism and evolution has been discussed recently, and at length, on another thread ("Nature and the Fall of Man"). Materialism: One cannot, I think, be a dualist and accept TOE. It's rather difficult to imagine a type of reality called "mentality" evolving out of another type of reality called "physicality." It must be all physical. But if it's all physical, then it's all a matter of automatic responses to stimuli, and that's a deterministic concept. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 05:34 AM This message has been edited by AdminPD, 01-21-2006 07:57 AM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I think it comes down to whether one is inclined to either believe in things for which we do not have evidence (faith), maintain an open mind on such things (agnosticism), or disbelieve in them I'm talking about what we do have evidence for--evolution--and I am suggesting that not only does evolution loosely fit the other ideas, but that evolution dictates them logically. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 08:27 AM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 08:27 AM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The Catholic Church accepts evolutionary theory but still holds that the human soul originated with God I'm just wondering how the Catholic Church is going to explain the apparent abitrary cruelty of nature and reconcile that with the goodness of God. Evolution is cruel.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I think that there MUST be some (kind) of determinism in TOE Yes. Physical events are deterministic in the sense that they happen automatically, like water running downhill. The water does not make a decision to run downhill. This is true of ALL physical events, unless there is a mind around to decide something. But if the brain is all physical, then all our thoughts are caused physically. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 08:49 AM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 08:50 AM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
You can study evolution without believing science is the avenue, or the only avenue, to truth. I'm not talking about just science. I'm talking about logic. My view would be that evolution logically excludes the supernatural, or at any rate it excludes the idea of God in the conventional sense.
This doesn't make sense to me. Nihilism is a subjective opinion There's nothing subjective about nihilism, unless you want to say that all thoughts are subjective. Nihilism is the view that life has no objective meaning or purpose. Nihilism, as I am using the term, is not a negative comment. It is neither negative nor positive. If evolution is true, then it follows that life has no objective meaning or purpose.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The Fall.... evolution and the Fall (which includes the Fall of nature) would seem to be irreconcilable.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
In which case we should all go home. We could do that, but it's more interesting to keep arguing.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
So you don't accept that your house has a Domovoi? I have no idea what you are talking about.
A: So you don't accept quantum indeterminacy? If you are saying that quantum events are uncaused, I disagree. We just don't know what the cause is.
A: So you don't accept that Eos has rosy fingers? I have no idea what you are talking about.
A: So you don't think that there is value in existence, and that morality is thus meaningless? In an objective sense, no I don't think that there is value in existence, and in an objective sense, I do think that morality is meaningless. Morals are, as Holmes has said, a matter of personal taste, like preferring one color to another.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Are you willing to examine the evidence that seems to indicate that your assumption is wrong? Sure, I'm willing.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Surely one could believe in a supernatural world without necessarily believing in an immaterial soul. "Supernatural" means incorporeal.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Okay, then let's start with th fact that I am a Christian and yet also find the TOE to be the best explanation available for the life we see about us and that which came before. Is that sufficient eveidence to falsify your asserton? No, it just means that you are trying to reconcile two beliefs which cannot logically be reconciled. I'm not saying that somebody can't believe that both Christianity and evolution are both true. People believe all sorts of things. But it's not a logical belief.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Domovoi are not material entities...I provided a link for you to help. I know, but what's your point?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Well, in that case, the fact that I can provide thousands and thousands of names of Christians who believe both Christianity and also that the TOE is a valid explanation of life as we can see it will not be accepted as evidence falsifying your assertion? No, that is not evidence. You are all wrong. It is evidence, however, of the popularity of this illogical belief.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
why is your god a liar? My god is not a liar. The God I don't believe in is a good God and always tells the truth. Let's have some religious tolerance here.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I'm not sure what to do except to reiterate my argument. The argument is that meaning is created by mind. It cannot be objective or subjective, except as created so by a mind. Then meaning has no place in this discussion. Rationality and logic does not necessitate that meaning be objective (applying to everything / all people) or subjective (applying to only one person). Meaning is created by a person. If you are that person, the meaning is objective. And there is no way to objectively see that it is not objective. If you are not that person, then that person's meaning looks subjective. In other words, the "objectivity" of meaning is observer-dependent. There are observers who have objective meaning. Just because you view it as subjective doesn't make it subjective. Just because it is only one person holding that meaning doesn't make it subjective. In other words, there's nothing that can make meaning "objectively subjective". Everybody judging meaning is an observer, and has meaning attached with their viewpoint. There is no observer-dependent position on meaning. Meaning is only subjective insofar as the observer sees it that way. There is no abstract, observer-independent view on meaning. Nihilism, inasfar as it is true, is only true because that is what you have chosen, and insofar as you are the observer. There is no logical necessity beyond that bare point. Because meaning is created, and you can't ... BE without it. Just ask Faith. If Faith can explain this mumbo-jumbo, she's a genius.
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