Another Test for Intelligent Design Proponents

Figure 1 is not a design. Figure 2 is a design. Rationale: Dumping a bag of sand at random will produce figure 1. In order to create figure 2, certain analysis of the shape, structure, amount of material required, size and shape have to be predetermined. Then a plan has to be made and implemented.

The ID movement has the same political goals as YEC creationists but what they accept as true is anathema to the YEC creationists and even to some OEC creationists".No, this is not true. ID in the real sense does not have to do anything with God. The designer can be even an alien from Mars OR a computer programmer or whatever you name. There is neither a Religious nor a political agenda. How and why? Evolution has become a sacred holy cow which is being protected by all means. Any challenge to this holy cow is considered ONLY as religious bigotry irrespective of Science. End of discussion. No more dialogues. Therefore, ID has emerged to demonstrate the failure of evolution and offer an alternate explanation. I am willing to discuss ID and evolution outside the realm of God or Bible purely based on Science.Ex-evolutionist, Ex-Darwinist, Ex-Democrat.

I have not read the wedge Document. Whatever I write is my personal opinion. However, I will read the Wedge Document. Thanks for your reply.

Things that have been introduced to explain it all a bit better (random mutations and natural selection) have been observed to exist, have been explained themselves, and contribute to a great deal of knowledge"I have a very difficult time believing this. When I think about random chance, mutations and natuiral selections only 2 things come into my mind. 1) If random choice and natural selection is observable, why is it that I could never observe the pieces of a puzzle self assemble themselves? 2) My friends have performed controlled mutations on the fruit fly,Drosphila Melanogaster. Even after millions of mutations, they have not found one useful mutant.
3) Why is it that amino acids do not self assemble to make proteins? Chemical evolution cannot occur.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For amino acids to form proteins a preformed cellular architechture is necessary. For example, your computer must have all the components in place for it to function. If something is missing, you cannot have anything working. So, in the cell, the enzymes must be there with all cofactors and other necessary elements for protein synthesis to occur.In Nature, you have 2 forms of amino acids. One is the L-form. Which is biologically active. The D-form is abiological poison. The mixture has equal parts of these 2 forms. So. they do not work. The D-form will will inhibit any further activity.Chemical sysnthesis cannot occur at random. Only certain groups will react and others will not. For protein sysnthesis to occur,. all 20 amino acids must exist. Certain groups have to be protected.There is also another phenomenon known as Steric hindrance which does not allow any chemical to react with anything else. It is more complex than what you think. Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen.

This is false. First, simply by the law of mass action, if you have a solution that includes amino acids there will be a few polypeptides as well.Second, catalysts to this reaction that do not involve preformed cellular architecture."WELL, YOU CAN TRY THIS EXPERIMENT. YOU CAN COMBINE 2 AMINO ACID SOLUTIONS AND LEAVE THEM FOR AS LONG AS YOU WANT. THEY WILL STILL REMAIN AS AMINO ACIDS UNLESS YOU SUPPLY ENERGY AS WELL AS SOME CATALYST"-------------------------------------------------
In Nature, you have 2 forms of amino acids. One is the L-form. Which is biologically active. The D-form is abiological poison.
Funny, but free oxygen is also a poison to life. Yet there is free oxygen, and there is life." YOU ARE MIXING APPLES AND ORANGES. D-AMINO ACIDS ARE ENZYME INHIBITORS. THEY DO NOT ALLOW THE REACTION IN THE BIOLOGICAL SYSTEM TO CONTINUE. HOWEVER, OXYGEN FREE RADICAL CAUSES PEROXIDATION OF LIPIDS. SUPEROXIDE DISMUTASE WILL ELIMINATE THIS IN THE LIVING CELL. CELL WILL STILL SURVIVE"For protein sysnthesis to occur,. all 20 amino acids must exist.
This is false. Polypeptides can consist of only a single amino acid."YES, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CAN HAVE POLY GLYCINE AND POLY ASPARTIC ACID. THEY HAVE LIMITED ACTIVITIES. FOR ANY BIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY, THERE MUST BE DIVERSITY OF THE AMINO ACIDS. THE ISSUE HERE IS WHETHER SELF ASSEMBLY OF PROTEINS OCCURS OR NOT. THE ANSWER IS IT DOES NOT OCCUR"Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen. Actually, you don't seem to know much about chemistry yourself.
"THANK YOU FOR THIS COMPLIMENT"DID YOU KNOW THAT HALF KNOWLEDGE ON ANYTHING IS VERY DANGEROUS? YOU CAN HAVE EXHAUSTIVE VOLUMES OF SYNTHETIC ORGANIC CHEMISTRY. THEY STILL DO NOT ANSWER THE BASIC AND SIMPLE QUESTIONS"once again, assumptions and wishfull thinking do not produce anything.Amino acids will stay as amino acids even after million years and chances are that they will be degraded. The chances of self assembly of aminot acids into proteins occuring is even less than 1 in 10 X42 (10 raised to the power of 42) which is a statistical improbability. If you believe that this is happening, that is Science fiction. Yes, it takes more faith to believe in Evolution than the believe in Intelligent Design."

Thank you for letting me know. Please go ahead.

Incorrect, inkorrekt: my computer needs a minimum set of components present to perform a given function; that minimum varies depending on what function I want it to perform"When I said all the components, I only meant basic functions(Mother board, CPU, Memory and hard drive). Even for the basic functions, you should have all the components in the right place. I only gave n analogy. All the components(basic minimum) are necessary. Even if one is missing, it does nto function. Similarly, for protein sysnthesis to occur, all the structures in the cell are necessary for biosynthetic functions.

Thanks for posting these examples. ALL of them raise a big question. How could they be in existence without a designer?Dogs are more affectionate to us than people towards other people. How do we explain love? What kind of love is this? Is it because 2 people evolved and they felt lonely and there was a need for love and there came love from nowhere!!!!!

I have performed many synthetic reactions. Not all of them worked. But, only a few.I may be INKORREKT. But, in my little mind, it is extremely hard for to imagine how, many reactions that cannot occur in a test tube can occur in nature.Yes, you are right about the computer. Yes, in your computer, though your RAM chip(random memory) failed it still ran because it still had the Static memory on the board. I think this is where your basic BIOS works. Well, what I meant was for the computer to work, the microprocessors, the chip set, the time clock, associated electronic components all must be in place. You can have the CPU. But, if the chip set fails, nothing will happen.I used this only as an example. What is important here is not the mechanics, but the structural design and architecture that are necessary for the desired function.About amino acids, you can have poly amino acid made up of only one amino acid. For example Poly glycine. I do not know what its biogical acitivity will be. You need not have all the 20 amino acids to form a protein. For a protien to be functional, there has to be the proper sequence of the specific types of amino acids with specific interactive bonds. In the case of Insulin there are 2 disulfide bonds at specific sites. So, a polypetide(single or few amino acids) as long as Insulim molecule will not have any biological acitivity of tht of Insulin. For that poly peptide to have activity similar to Insulin, this has to have all the neccesary amino acids in proper sequence. I have never heard of any self assembled protein having any biological activity. Today, we have chemical synthesizers which can create taylor made molecules.For example, we have DNA synthesizers. The design of this machine even required an Intelligent person.

There is a Professor by name Ward Churchil who makes 120,000/ year out of my taxes.He is not a Scientist. All he does is to attack America and Praise Saddam hussein. He says those 3000 men and women who died on 911 are little Eichmans.He does not have a Ph.D. He was the chairman of the school of ethnic studies. Is this not wonderful america!!!!! His wife also makes another 90,000. Do you want name, awards, and money? Start attacking America. You will be given the Nobel Prize like Jimmy Carter, Arafat, Kofi annan etc.This message has been edited by inkorrekt, 02-11-2006 06:16 PMThis message has been edited by AdminJar, 02-11-2006 05:21 PM

This is hard for me to imagine. That random choice and mutations can produce everything. What is the connection between random choice and mutations? Can they not occur independently?For the puzzles to be put in place, an external force is necessary. This is the point of discussion. This has nothing to do with mutations.On the fruit fly, my friends were only trying to find if any Microevolution occured even after millions of mutations. It never happened.

Speaking of looking things up, have you read up on the Urey/Miller experiments yet? You seem to have a habit of making serious errors of fact without acknowledging your mistakes.Can you show me what were my mistakes? Urey Miller experiment was the classical one carried out if there will be any a biogenesis from the basic elements. This is how it is being reported. To me, they were trying to synthsize life and it never happened.If life is so simple as everyone talks about, why is it that no one has ever synthesized life yet?

You know this better. I don ot have to say anything bout this. Since you have brought this up, I have to state this. I have carried out many synthetic reactions. Not all of them worked. Only a few worked. Why? This is because of all the chemical laws. Certain reactions can never occur no matter what you do. If everything is possible, then we will not have an orderly universe. It will only be Chaos.We do not have chaos because of chemical laws regulating all the processes.Well, I was assigned a project that required ingenuity. I had applied mine. I came up with a theoretical plan. It seemed feasible. But, my boss who was not even a Chemist always discouraged me. It was a serious challenge to me. I took it and pursued my work diligently. Finally I made it to work. I even provided the evidence that it worked. This is regarding surface modification of a polymer. My boss could not believe it. But, he had to believe with the evidence which was over whelming. You will not believe this. After all this, he told me one day that this is exactly what he was planning to do for 10 years. Then the question: If you knew that this would work, then why did you discourage me? Well he tried to kill my project. This is practical reality in Science

ROFL! I'm a chemist - PhD Ohio State 1979. It' very hard indeed to "understand why it cannot happen" when it actually has been shown to be able to happen. You've been lied to, Inkorrekt"""""When a Chemist himself makes a statement, what am I supposed to do?
You are dead wrong. You have not understood either ROFL's message as well as my reply. I will write as much as I can to show that they are wrong. Please do not read my posts if they offend you.