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Author Topic:   The next Einstein
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 16 of 26 (340443)
08-16-2006 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by mansouryar
08-15-2006 7:35 PM


Could I put in a word for Emmy Noether? Among mathematicians, she is celebrated for founding abstract algebra; in physics, she is the author of Neother's Theorem, which shows that every conservation law is associated with a symmetry and vice versa.
"The key to the relation of symmetry laws to conservation laws is Emmy Noether's celebrated Theorem. ... Before Noether's Theorem the principle of conservation of energy was shrouded in mystery, leading to the obscure physical systems of Mach and Ostwald. Noether's simple and profound mathematical formulation did much to demystify physics." --- Feza Gursey.
"In the realm of algebra in which the most gifted mathematicians have been busy for centuries she discovered methods which have proved of enormous importance in the development of present day younger generation of mathematicians." --- Einstein (obituary for Noether)
It would be fair to describe her as a female Einstein if only Einstein had been good at maths.
Who will be the next Emmy Noether?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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 Message 13 by mansouryar, posted 08-15-2006 7:35 PM mansouryar has replied

Replies to this message:
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mansouryar
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 26 (340462)
08-16-2006 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by CK
08-16-2006 6:43 AM


Re: How about this one?
I had no special meaning on that comparison. I cited her name, because she won 2 Nobel prizes, and her husband and her child did too (1 prize, of course). Therefore, her position is quite unique in the history of science and that would be a great honor for any lady to be compared with her.

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mansouryar
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 26 (340466)
08-16-2006 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Adequate
08-16-2006 7:22 AM


Dr Adequate,
Yes, you're quite right. Emmy Noether did an enormous service to the science. With more listing of such people, maybe more women would be motivated to show their capabilities.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-16-2006 7:22 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

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nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 19 of 26 (340501)
08-16-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mansouryar
08-16-2006 10:07 AM


Re: How about this one?
quote:
Therefore, her position is quite unique in the history of science and that would be a great honor for any lady to be compared with her.
What about a man?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mansouryar, posted 08-16-2006 10:07 AM mansouryar has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 20 of 26 (340504)
08-16-2006 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by mansouryar
08-16-2006 10:24 AM


quote:
With more listing of such people, maybe more women would be motivated to show their capabilities.
Women's reluctance to show their capabilities is not even close to being the largest impediment to their being recognized.

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 26 (340529)
08-16-2006 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by nator
08-16-2006 12:33 PM


It would be fair to describe her as a female Einstein if only Einstein had been good at maths.
She was pure genius. Whatever Einstein was, she was one too.
Women's reluctance to show their capabilities is not even close to being the largest impediment to their being recognized.
Also unfortunatly the larger impediments lead to the reluctance, which in turn feeds those impediments.
A circular curse.
I've seen intelligent women build up a "ditsy" faade to deal with the social faux pas of being an intelligent woman. This faade then makes it hard for them to be taken seriously in academia.
(Disclaimer: At least this is what I have seen in Ireland.)

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nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 22 of 26 (340578)
08-16-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Son Goku
08-16-2006 2:23 PM


quote:
I've seen intelligent women build up a "ditsy" faade to deal with the social faux pas of being an intelligent woman. This faade then makes it hard for them to be taken seriously in academia.
Being smart, and academically successful and broadcasting it is at times an impediment for women socially, as well.
One of my husband's past female graduate student labmates told him a story about how she and her medical school-attending girlfriends went to a bar popular with students and young professionals one night.
When they told the men who were chatting them up that they were in med school or graduate students in Neuropsychology, they got no phone numbers.
As an experiment, they went back and told the men who chatted them up that they were aerobics instructors, and they got lots and lots of phone numbers.
They didn't act any differently, didn't "dumb down" their conversation or anything, but the men were all scared off by any sign of a strong intellect in a woman.
Pathetic.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 23 of 26 (340723)
08-17-2006 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by nator
08-16-2006 5:41 PM


I had a laugh reading your post and had to respond...
Being smart, and academically successful and broadcasting it is at times an impediment for women socially, as well.
Uh... that's the same for guys. Its the jocks that have the women dripping off of them, not the scientists.
One of my husband's past female graduate student labmates told him a story about how she and her medical school-attending girlfriends went to a bar popular with students and young professionals one night.
Please note that these brainy females attempted to seek partners at a bar rather than places where more intellectual pursuits were going on. Maybe if they went to scientific, historic, or artistic social functions they'd find guys interested in women who are intellectual.
Things may have changed since I was around college campuses but bars in general tend to be about drinking and enjoying things, and not heavy intellectualization. And when it comes to "getting phone numbers" it came down to physical attraction with the most likelihood of attaining sex, and not who will make a good spouse or next einstein.
Indeed one wonders if these women bothered asking guys that were into intellectual careers, or focused on guys who were cute. After all they already chose the wrong venue to start with if THEY were interested in intellectuals.
Go figure if the jocks and business majors weren't into someone more intellectually imposing.
graduate students in Neuropsychology
This may have also changed since my days in college, but most guys tended to shy away from girls in psychology. They were usually thought to be nuts. Intriguingly I've known my fair share of women in psych and they usually DO have problems they are working out. Though to be fair not all have "instabilities".
My current gf is neuropsych (soon to be graduate), currently leaning towards neurosurgery if she can. She has no problems finding guys at all, even when they are unwanted since she is in a relationship. Before you ask... yes its still the same gf who is in porn (though she gets guys just as easily who do not know this and only know her as a neuropsych major). Believe it or not you can be very smart and very sexual at the same time.
As an experiment, they went back and told the men who chatted them up
Gee, I wonder if they really acted the same way, or were more outgoing and cheerful when pretending to be aerobics intructors? But let's say they managed to pull off not changing any of their behaviors, why didn't they broaden their experiment by discussing other types of majors and going to different venues besides a bar?
but the men were all scared off by any sign of a strong intellect in a woman.
That's a pretty easy conclusion. Maybe they weren't rocket scientists and were looking for companionship with people that had more in common with them? Or even if they were intellectual were going to a bar to seek companionship that was an escape from their day to day experiences?
Pathetic.
Yeah, that's how I'd characterize that "experiment" and its purported conclusions.
ON TOPIC...
Here's my commentary on the next Einstein... maybe it won't be someone discussing the hard sciences at all. Indeed why do we focus on just those? Perhaps it could be someone who delivers an understanding of human relations or societal functions that is not math based, but accessible and usable by many to get through their lives easier.
As much as I do admire and prefer the hard sciences, I recognize that extreme brilliance might also involve understanding the human condition itself from a qualitative rather than quantitative standpoint.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 275 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 24 of 26 (340750)
08-17-2006 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by nator
08-16-2006 5:41 PM


But the same applies to men.
There's a story in Richard Feynman's autobiography (he was a Nobel Laureate in physics). He told the girls that he was employed as a physics professor (which was true) and got no dates. He told them that he was an unemployed tennis coach ... suddenly he got dates.
It seems that it is more attractive to women to be a failed athlete than a successful scientist.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 25 of 26 (341116)
08-18-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Silent H
08-17-2006 3:54 AM


quote:
Its the jocks that have the women dripping off of them, not the scientists.
Er, a man who is physically attractive and who also is smart, and acheived some kind of outward success like advanced degrees or business acumen, is considered a prime catch.
The women in my example had the same attributes, yet they were rejected for the very same reasons a man would be considered desireable. A doctor or lawyer is still considered my many mothers as the ultimate son in law, so much so that it is a cliche.
The bottom line is, women tend to be attracted to men who achieve because it is considered powerful and masculine.
More than a few men are threatened by intelligent women or women who achieve, feeling that it puts their masculinity at risk.
Maybe you don't realize that this goes on all the time, in both blatant and more subtle ways, because you are a man.
Believe me, no women I have ever spoken to about this has ever failed to tell me a story along the smae lines as the one I related.
quote:
Please note that these brainy females attempted to seek partners at a bar rather than places where more intellectual pursuits were going on. Maybe if they went to scientific, historic, or artistic social functions they'd find guys interested in women who are intellectual.
Er, read my post. The bar was popular with young professionals and other students.
quote:
Believe it or not you can be very smart and very sexual at the same time.
Oh, brother.
I am so glad that you are here, holmes, otherwise I wouldn't have learned that very smart people can be very sexual.
Thank you so much.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5810 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 26 of 26 (341407)
08-19-2006 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by nator
08-18-2006 3:14 PM


Er, a man who is physically attractive and who also is smart, and acheived some kind of outward success like advanced degrees or business acumen, is considered a prime catch.
Your reply does not address the nature of the problem. You just got done slamming guys in general because a small cross section of men that go to bars to pick up women (which is a small cross section of men in general) didn't choose a specific group of girls unless they said they were aerobics instructors.
My reply started by pointing out that physical success is what gets rewarded by sexual attention of females and not intellectual success. Your reply to that is to shift the goal posts. Okay, yeah it doesn't hurt if a guy is successful in business and is smart (in general). That is totally different than a person who is intellectual and pursues an intellectual career.
Whether you are great looking or not as a guy, mentioning that you are a physicist or chemist does NOT get you a phone number with women. That you have a career that brings in a lot of money might.
A doctor or lawyer is still considered my many mothers as the ultimate son in law, so much so that it is a cliche.
Funny, but I never met a girl in a bar that was worried what her mother wanted as a son in law when handing out her phone number. You know what challenges this connection you just made? Reality. Guys in science do NOT get girls' numbers in bars by mentioning their profession, and appealing to what their mother might want would only get a laugh.
The women in my example had the same attributes, yet they were rejected for the very same reasons a man would be considered desireable.
That is a very easy assertion (I mean really how can you or I say they are attractive), and one I challenged with other possibilities. Why could it not be that they were not looking for professional women at a bar for reasons other than intellectual intimidation? Heck, one reason I didn't mention is that maybe they ASSUMED an intellectual woman wouldn't want to be hit on or fall for something cheap like handing out a phone number.
As a guy I can tell you that if a girl is really good looking, most guys are NOT going to turn her down just because she is smart. Other factors may play into not wanting to get to know a girl further, but even the dumb jocks I knew were willing to have sex with a girl that was smarter than them.
The bottom line is, women tend to be attracted to men who achieve because it is considered powerful and masculine.
There's your problem, intellectual careers are NOT synonymous with success. Lawyers and doctors get their social status based on the money they make, not their brilliance.
More than a few men are threatened by intelligent women or women who achieve, feeling that it puts their masculinity at risk.
No arguing that more than a few might be. But that was not shown by your example, and neither can that be said about men in general.
Maybe you don't realize that this goes on all the time, in both blatant and more subtle ways, because you are a man.
I see, if I don't agree with you and pose alternative hypotheses or counterarguments it is that I am wrong, and simply cannot see the truth, because I am a man.
That's a great fallacy you have there schraf.
Believe me, no women I have ever spoken to about this has ever failed to tell me a story along the smae lines as the one I related.
That's funny, because someone just noted Feynman's counterexample and no guy I have ever spoken to has failed to tell me a story along the same lines. Am I free to extrapolate that women are threatened by the true intellectual capacity of men, and are simply golddiggers looking for men who are attractive and rich?
Oh yeah, and I just told you my gf does NOT have the same experiences. And I have dated more than one who was not only very smart, and in an intellectual career, but successful at getting dates.
The bar was popular with young professionals and other students.
That does not address my counter point... unless you are suggesting all male students could be represented by those at the bar? That members of all different "classes" of student may be found at a bar does not suggest that all kinds of males in those different classes go to bars... especially to pick up women.
Remember this was YOUR example. Some girls went to a bar and found they could be more successful getting picked up if they said they were aerobics instructors.
If you can't see that you are dealing with a very small cross section of guy that THEY were looking for, and that those guys may have had equally valid criteria for rejecting intellectuals (or choosing women who are physically inclined) than simply being frightened by them, then I suggest you are biased in your viewpoint... and not because you are a woman.
otherwise I wouldn't have learned that very smart people can be very sexual.
You just got done telling me that men are frightened by women who are smart, and that smart women tend to have problems getting men. It sounded like you weren't aware that smart women could be sexual, or at least successful at being sexual.
I want to state at the end of this that I have to take your word that these girls were attractive at all. Perhaps they were not, and so aerobics intructor made them seem at least semi attractive to guys who'd think that means they were easy.
In any case, why were they concerned with picking up guys in bars rather than in areas where men who appreciate intellect (and are not resorting to the meat market) might be? Are you telling me their main concern was guys that were intellectual? Seems an odd choice of hunting ground.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

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