Human Programming

I personally think that can certainly be a major and in too many cases, exclusive point of origin. In many cases that is absolutely true. What many folk forget is that religions are simply the Map, not the Territory. Christianity, Islam, Wicca, Taoism, Satanism, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism or any other religion is not GOD.Like all maps, they must be tested constantly against reality and where they do not correspond with reality, questioned.There does appear to be two kinds of people in the world:

• those who look for Answers to questions.
• those who look for answers to Question.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Reality is the Universe we live in. Some do. Those that look for Answers to Questions for example. I don't. Look at the thread Message 1.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I believe in salvation mostly for comfort reasons. I kinda hope that the questions will never end. But an afterlife is only a personal belief and certainly not something anyone living will ever know.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Certainly possible.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I most definitely did not say anything like that.You asked me why I believed in an afterlife, why I thought folk needed to be saved.I certainly do not think "Because Christianity is the only possible working religion".Earlier I said that religions are but the Maps, not the Territory. Maps will be more or less accurate. All of the maps will have places where they correspond very closely with the Territory, and other places where they are out of date, or just plain wrong.Christianity is no exception.I believe in an afterlife for personal comfort reasons. Such an afterlife may or may not exist, and no one living will ever know for sure.If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that It does not exist.If GOD does not exist, then He does not exist regardless of any evidence She does exist.God's is totally out of our control and absolutely untestable, unknowable by any one, any religion, independent of any belief system.I happen to think that the lessons that Jesus and the Bible teach have validity here. They are testable, to see if the Map corresponds with the Territory.In the Garden of Eden (GOE) story we are told that we have the Knowledge of Good and Evil. There is an implicit charge related to that, that we should try to do what is right, try not to do what is wrong and, when we screw up, honestly acknowledge our failings and to try to do better in the future.Regardless of whether the story of the GOE is true or not, that is a useful lesson.Jesus taught us that there were two commandments. The first is to Love God.The second is a two parter, we are to love others as we love ourselves.Note in particular the second part. It amplifies the charge from the GOE. It says we need to first be honest about ourselves. Then, we need to honestly treat others as we would like to be treated, but only after really honestly evaluating our own lives and trying to get our own house in order.Return for a moment to the first part. How do we love God?Again, Jesus lays that out very clearly, particularly in Matthew 25:31-46. It is what we do, how we behave, and what we do for those around us.Notice in all of the Sheep and Goats passage, there is NOTHING about belief? It is all about what you do.Again, this is a place we can test the Map against reality. Does how we behave help or hurt those around us?I chose Christianity for several reasons. One is that I found the messages as laid out in this post useful. They outline a good way to live.Does that invalidate other Maps? No. They too will reflect the Territory but just like Christianity, must always be tested. Just because the Map may show a bridge does not mean the bridge is still there. Look, test, verify.The comfort reason I mentioned is related to many factors, Love (I hope to once again see my mother and father as well as friends, pets and new folk), curiosity (I still have many many questions and hopefully the answers I get will lead to even more exciting new ones).But I believe that hope for an afterlife is unrelated to Christianity or any other religion. I have spent many years studying Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Taoism, Confucius, Mencius, Buddhism, Wicca as well as many of the Native American religious beliefs, Norse, Greek, Egyptian (one favorite book growing up was the Book of the Dead) and regardless of where I ended up, I think that desire, that hope for an afterlife would be a key driving force for me.I am the proverbial Elephant Child, "full of 'satiable curtiosity".

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

to which Catholic Scientist replied: Not at all. I believe that there is a GOD, but I also acknowledge that that can never be more than a belief. Yes I believe GOD is unknowable by anyone. How exactly does one test that the source really is GOD and not something else?Would not any such test reduce GOD to something only natural?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

And just how would you be able to tell that what you "Know" really was the product of God's actions and not some other critter? The folk in Heaven's Gate "Knew" that the vessel was in Hale-Bop.As you say, any sufficiently powerful critter could make you "Know" something even if it is not true.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think that if we are to be honest, we must acknowledge that we might be wrong.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yet I believe that there is a GOD. Agnostics say they just have no idea. Atheists say there is no God. Well the story is there regardless of whether it is true or not. According to the story it is GOD that gives us that charge and that is what I believe.BUT...again, even if the story is simply a tale told around the campfire, the lesson is valid.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You said... ... but then changed to the term Programming when you said ... That is not necessarily correct. You said belief is the result of reason. It could be based on evidence or teachings or intuition or any of several other pathways.Why choose the limited and somewhat emotionally loaded term Programming?Could it also not be equally valid to substitute reason or evidence in that sentence? Could I not say ... ... or ...

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I do think the issue is one of great importance however and Programming does play a significant part of the Religious Scene.However ...the nature of the programming can vary greatly.I was raised primarily in the Episcopal Tradition. One of the basic facets of Episcopal Programming is questioning.IMHO that is a significant difference between the Episcopal Programming and that of some other religious sources. In some sects and in particular, many Christian Sects, the basic programming is on accepting authority.Questioning is often uncomfortable. We see that here quite often. New members come in and present arguments against Evolution and expect the same head nod they normally get from their communion. They are simply not used to folk questioning their positions or beliefs and when that happens it is a rude and cold shock to their comfort zone.The same thing happens on the Faith side. They present prophesy as support of a position only to have the text itself examined to see if it even really says what they claim. This is a new experience for many of them.In both cases what often follows is that the individual takes questioning the positions presented as a personal attack, as though the message was an intrinsic part of their very nature so that an attack on the message is an attack on themselves.The difference in the two approaches to programming, and in honesty we must admit that both are programming, is that a programming towards looking for Answers to Questions is limited and exclusive. Once the Answer is found it is impossible to go any further.On the other hand programming towards looking for Answers to Question is unlimited and inclusive. Every Answer is but a platform, a jumping off point for further learning and exploration.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes I meant to write it that way. Note the missing 's' in the later definition.When you are programmed to look for Answers to Question, you do not simply accept ANY answer except as a platform for future searching and examination. Answers are tentative and subject to change as different evidence, new understanding or conditions change. That even extends to something as central to Religion as ones understanding of GOD or the message the religion imparts.Answers change from being a destination, the end of the journey, to simply one stop along the way to even greater understanding. You learn from each answer and use that knowledge as a platform for future exploration, a greater understanding. What has been learned is included, but new understanding is not excluded.In the former programming style, looking for Answers to Questions, new knowledge, new understanding is excluded once the particular Answer is found.The former is limited and exclusionary because people programmed that way stop once they reach their ANSWER and exclude anything that might conflict with it.The later is unlimited and inclusive because answers simply lead to new questions and new evidence, understanding is included as it becomes available.I am not simply saying that programming can be good or bad but that certain types of programming can be better than others. It is not the message that I address but the method, the technique, the process.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, not at all.Every religion is just a Map. They can be more or less accurate, but not one of them is actually true. All must be constantly tested against the Territory. I would contend that you would be wrong. Why can't both be the word of GOD?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Every religion is just a Map, not the Territory. Maps will be more or less accurate, yet still helpful. It is very likely that both Islam and Christianity are wrong in many of the details, none of us alive are likely to find out for sure. But there are areas on the Maps that can be checked against Territory, and when those parts of the two Faiths are examined we find a pretty high level of correspondence between what is on the Map and the Territory.And why not read scripture from other religions? I know that when I was in school, a Christian Religious School, I was encouraged to study Islam, Judaism, Taoism, Buddhism, the writings of Confucius and Mencius and the Greek Philosophers and German Philosophers and Norse Mythology. Why shouldn't other maps be examined?There is no special interpretation needed, only honesty. We need to understand that when it comes to Theistic discourse or beliefs, they are simply that, beliefs. They could well be wrong.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No. That is not my argument nor have I ever said such a thing. I believe GOD exists because of personal observations, but that is absolutely immaterial.If GOD exists then GOD exists regardless of any evidence She does not exist.If GOD does not exist then GOD does not exist regardless of any evidence She does exist.The actuality of GOD will forever be beyond testing and must remain as simply a belief. They are almost certain to be wrong in some manner. I must test what I can of my beliefs, my Map against the only Territory available to me, the Universe we live in. Those parts of my beliefs that are related to the supernatural, afterlife, the existence of the 'soul', the existence of GOD, can only be a mater of Faith. Of course you can say that. You can hold any beliefs that make you comfortable. But you would be wrong.I accept the Bible just as many other Christians accept the Bible, my beliefs are not all that unusual. It is only that most of those like me have been far less vocal than those who are exclusionary and limited.Remember that much of my beliefs have been developed through exposure to others in the field of Christianity. For example, it has been people like Fathers Joe Wood and James Cantrell, Bishops Reeves, Sims and Shipps; through education in a Christian Church School; through study of the Bible, Torah, Talmud, Qu'ran, the Vedas, Norse Mythology, Greek and Roman Mythology, the Book of the Dead; the writings of Confucius, Mencius, Lau Tzu as well as through personal reason, logic and debate.Remember that my religious training from the very beginning was based on Questioning, not simply accepting authority.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion