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Author
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Topic: Monotheism, Yahweh and his Asherah
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 3 of 54 (413508)
07-31-2007 8:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Reding
07-30-2007 12:49 PM
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what do we know of ancient middle eastern cultures to back up that they praised masculine (hero) figures and was it important enough to slander a female figure like done with Asherah in the bible. As most of us know a multitude of figurines and texts of this goddess have been found which claimed she was Yahweh's consort. There are signs - through archaeological evidence - Asherah was a highly regarded goddess ...despite the biblical version of her figure! There were countless idols in the Middle East, but more specifically, a fertility goddess. Asherah was no exception to the rule. The Bible has much to say about her, consequently, all negative. "Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole beside the altar you build to the LORD your God." -Deuteronomy 16:21 "The Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD; they forgot the LORD their God and served the Baals and the Asherahs." -Judges 3:7 There are at least six more corresponding passages that view her negatively within Scripture.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Reding, posted 07-30-2007 12:49 PM | | Reding has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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The point
we already know that 1. the bible talks about her and 2. the bible talks badly about her. these two were stated in the OP. please say something useful. There are a plethora of male demigods that were worshipped too, which is why I specifically chose a verse that spoke both about Baal and Ashterah. I guess the good question to the OP is what is the point of the inquiry.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: The point
quote:
I guess the good question to the OP is what is the point of the inquiry.
to ask what the reality of Asherah was, not what the bible says about her. you know, like the OP asked? The OP says that figurines were fashioned to represent her, and from that he has deduced that many Israelites were quite fond of her. Well, no kidding. Which is why Moses said stop worshipping idols. So that still doesn't answer the question.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: ba'al
asherot might be a general term the bible uses for the consorts of ba'alim. But why the distinction in the Judges passage of a demigod and a goddess of fertility?
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 13 of 54 (413652)
07-31-2007 7:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Reding
07-31-2007 4:58 PM
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my appologies if i wasn't clear enough but as brenna pointed out i was curious about Asherah, not so much because she was a goddess but rahter why someone from the opposite sex - as i understand it - was taken down while the evidence show clear signs of worship, of a deity very important within the ancient hebrew culture. I don't understand what you mean by taken down? I'm also detecting a subtle implication here-- that they only had done so because she was a female. Obviously, the qualifier is that she was a pagan god, since Molech and Ba'al were demigods but also denounced.
Why would the israelites choose to drop Asherah in the presence of a fearful male god? It appears to me the israelites had the saying unless the scriptures were manipulated afterwards. What evidence do you have that the scriptures were manipulated? You said that among the Israelites, many of them worshiped pagan deities, such as Asherah. That's true. We have both a historical record as well as physical evidence pointing to that truism. However, you seem to be making a case that means that all Israelites were the same. That's not true. I'm sure there were polytheistic Israelites just like there were monotheistic Israelites or atheistic Israelites. If your over over-arching question is why she is viewed negatively in the Scriptures, its because Moses and the other founders of Judaism refer to her as a false god-- which is, no god at all. And again, she wasn't the only one. She was one of many.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Reding, posted 07-31-2007 4:58 PM | | Reding has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 17 by PaulK, posted 08-01-2007 2:49 AM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied | | | Message 20 by Reding, posted 08-01-2007 8:12 AM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: ba'al and asherot
which passage would that be? Judges 3:7
i'm not sure of a good way to render "ba'alim and asherot." they're plural, and thus quite clearly general -- had they been singular, they'd be individual gods by name. but they're not. there seems to be more than one "asherah" and more than one "ba'al" Even if there is, it could be distinguishing between gods and goddesses. That's my understanding of it. This is what I'm sensing. I'm sensing that Reding is saying that Ashterah was moved from a positive view to a negative one because of patriachy. I'm saying it has everything to do with the fact that she is a pagan goddess.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 43 of 54 (414131)
08-02-2007 9:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Reding
08-01-2007 8:12 AM
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Ishtar, Asherah, Molech, Ba'al etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....
Asherah is the most frequently apearring female deity in the OT, I believe 40+ times. Actually, its 10 times.
In 1963 Yamashita already observed that those insults toawrd Asherah came from only one source and is called the Deuteronomic principle. It’s a principle that extends throughout Deuteronomy and 2 Kings. I thought that by connecting Asherah to Ba’al and Astarte it would be easyer for the scribes to reduce her importance so that Jehovah would fit in a monoteistic view. I still wonder why the hebrews needed to be patriarchal. They don't need to be patriarchal. Judaism, by definition, is a monotheistic religion. All that monotheism means is that you believe in one God. I'm still not understanding why you think that a female deity was specifically excommunicated simply because she was a female when the same kind of excommunications were commonplace for male deities such as Molech and Ba'al.
It was only after the discoveries of the famous tablets of Ugarit that we knew Asherah was a goddess, that she meant more than what the canonic scribes wanted us to believe. She was a national devotion ,right? The Babylonian fertility goddess, Ishtar, is the same kind of goddess. She was a very famous goddess in Paul's day, among a myriad of other gods and goddesses spoken about in the book of Acts. Some of those remnants remain with us today as they've been assimilated in to the culture, probably unbeknownst to you. The name "Easter" derives from the original word, Ishtar. Have you ever wondered what in the world do Easter eggs have to do with Jesus Christ? Easter eggs, or, Ishtar eggs, are representative of great fertility. During the fledgling Christian years in Rome, the worship of the pagan goddess was fairly common. Pretty soon the two religions were vying for the hearts and minds of the people. The two beliefs became consolidated in the process. What we have today is a conflation between a pagan holiday and a Christian one. Easter isn't unique in this aspect either. Practically all of the "Christian" holidays have some sort of pagan influence in it. Sorry for the tangent. I just thought that you might find that interesting.
Despite her rejection in the OT there’s significant evidence of a prominent place within the hebrew culture. No one is contending with that though. That much seems rather obvious since Moses is having to present an argument for turning away from false gods.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Reding, posted 08-01-2007 8:12 AM | | Reding has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 47 by Jaderis, posted 08-04-2007 5:40 AM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied | | | Message 49 by Reding, posted 08-04-2007 5:59 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: ba'al and asherot
what i really mean is that asherah seems to be the generic term for "pagan goddess." any pagan goddess. Ah, thanks for the clarification. Yes, that may very well be. I suppose it is also possible that Asherah and Ishtar is one in the same. I say this because some people speak of Astarte and Asherah as being two different goddesses within the pantheon, when, in actuality, Astarte is simply the Greek rendering of Asherah. Kind of like how Gehenna is the Hebrew rendering for hell, and Hades is the Greek rendering for hell.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt
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