Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,927 Year: 4,184/9,624 Month: 1,055/974 Week: 14/368 Day: 14/11 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Monotheism, Yahweh and his Asherah
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 1 of 54 (413347)
07-30-2007 12:49 PM


what do we know of ancient middle eastern cultures to back up that they praised masculine (hero) figures and was it important enough to slander a female figure like done with Asherah in the bible. As most of us know a multitude of figurines and texts of this goddess have been found which claimed she was Yahweh's consort. There are signs - through archaeological evidence - Asherah was a highly regarded goddess ...despite the biblical version of her figure!

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 8:55 AM Reding has not replied
 Message 9 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2007 5:11 PM Reding has not replied
 Message 15 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2007 9:25 PM Reding has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 8 of 54 (413605)
07-31-2007 4:58 PM


my appologies if i wasn't clear enough but as brenna pointed out i was curious about Asherah, not so much because she was a goddess but rahter why someone from the opposite sex - as i understand it - was taken down while the evidence show clear signs of worship, of a deity very important within the ancient hebrew culture. Something comparable happened to Mary Magdalene. Makes one wonder how important they really found the male god figure and wether this god was actually a reality of their everyday life as opposed to yet another creation of mankind in those times. Why would the israelites choose to drop Asherah in the presence of a fearful male god? It appears to me the israelites had the saying unless the scriptures were manipulated afterwards. After all our society's background (opposite sexes marrying and raising children) is typical jewish/christian. I hope i'm clear now, english is not my native language but i'm trying my best...

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2007 5:23 PM Reding has replied
 Message 13 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 7:32 PM Reding has replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 19 of 54 (413747)
08-01-2007 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
07-31-2007 5:23 PM


Re: patriarchy
well, that's simply guess work. we don't know that mariam of migdal even existed, let alone had a relationship with christ, who we also don't know anything about. but from archaeology, we know what some ancient hebrews and most of the surrounding cultures thought about asherah.
She didn’t necessarily had to excist at all if we want to merely understand why she would be considered an unchaste and sinful woman while she appears to have an important role among the disciples. Nevertheless the Magdalene figure got rejected.
Mary Magdalene - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2007 5:23 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by anastasia, posted 08-01-2007 11:41 AM Reding has replied
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 08-01-2007 1:50 PM Reding has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 20 of 54 (413748)
08-01-2007 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2007 7:32 PM


If your over over-arching question is why she is viewed negatively in the Scriptures, its because Moses and the other founders of Judaism refer to her as a false god-- which is, no god at all. And again, she wasn't the only one. She was one of many.
Asherah is the most frequently apearring female deity in the OT, I believe 40+ times.
In 1963 Yamashita already observed that those insults toawrd Asherah came from only one source and is called the Deuteronomic principle. It’s a principle that extends throughout Deuteronomy and 2 Kings. I thought that by connecting Asherah to Ba’al and Astarte it would be easyer for the scribes to reduce her importance so that Jehovah would fit in a monoteistic view. I still wonder why the hebrews needed to be patriarchal.
It was only after the discoveries of the famous tablets of Ugarit that we knew Asherah was a goddess, that she meant more than what the canonic scribes wanted us to believe. She was a national devotion ,right?
On the tablets we can read that she had her own prophets and that she spoke through their mouths to the people of Canaan. The ceremonies took place on hills near a pole or tree. In the north she was called Asherah of Tyrus, Asherah of Sidon or Elat. In the south she was also called Elat (the gulf of Aqaba).
Despite her rejection in the OT there’s significant evidence of a prominent place within the hebrew culture. Despite those excavations, among them remarkable texts clearly saying “Jehovah and his Asherah”, the scribes seemed to have other ideals.
In other locations, south Kadesh-Barnea and south Hebron they found the same inscriptions, a few of those inscriptions said “blessed is Jehovah and his Asherah”. It would fit nicely with a agraric culture, nomads needed a symbol of fertility and as we all know it was common practice.
Together with the historical and political aspects, enough doubts emerged regarding the credibility of the information about faith and the cults. The question of when did the Kingdom of Israel and Judah accepted monotheism emerged when texts in ancient hebrew were discovered saying “Jehovah and his Asherah”. The texts of the 8th century BC open the possibility that monotheism as a state religion actually is a renewal of the period of the Kingdom of Judah after the destruction of Israel . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2007 7:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-02-2007 9:31 PM Reding has replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 21 of 54 (413749)
08-01-2007 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
08-01-2007 2:49 AM


I think that the question is more how Asherah came to be classified as a pagan God. The archaeological evidence indicates that the Israelites grew out of the local Canaanite population and Yahweh likely began as their particular patron God. But why is it that a goddess who is sometimes identified as Yahweh's consort was removed rather than sharing her consort's rise to power ?
The Bible cannot tell us that because the Bible is written from a Yahwist point of view and to a large extent it imposes the views of the writers on the history (although some remnants of early polytheism may still be found). The idea that the Israelites were monotheists who kept adopting polytheism (only to suffer disaster from it) appears to be ahistorical. The evidence indicates that they were more likely polytheists who moved through henotheism to monotheism (and the relationship of disaster to religious faith seems mere propaganda).
Yes, thank you!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 08-01-2007 2:49 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 22 of 54 (413752)
08-01-2007 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by arachnophilia
08-01-2007 3:06 AM


because monotheism means "one god." don't over-think it -- religion isn't motivated by illectual concerns. monotheism, specifically the jewish brand, requires the removal of ALL over gods, including the ones associated with the one you adopt as your only god.
I'm more concerned with the socio-cultural aspect of the acceptance of one god, and why everyone else had to succumb, occasionally with violence. Are we merely talking about extremism here and why? ...and were there other cultures who had a similar philosophy/religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 08-01-2007 3:06 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 08-01-2007 2:00 PM Reding has replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 25 of 54 (413764)
08-01-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
08-01-2007 9:38 AM


Re: ba'al and asherot
i'm not sure of a good way to render "ba'alim and asherot." they're plural, and thus quite clearly general -- had they been singular, they'd be individual gods by name. but they're not. there seems to be more than one "asherah" and more than one "ba'al"
perhaps it's a reference to the objects/figurines...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-01-2007 9:38 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 30 of 54 (413794)
08-01-2007 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by anastasia
08-01-2007 11:41 AM


Re: patriarchy
The Magdalene figure as the wife of Jesus got rejected because there is simply no direct evidence for it.
Mary Magdalene, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, were not rejected whatsoever from veneration or high status in the church. Of all the saints, it is a woman who is most widely esteemed. I think that kind of nullifies your argument that Mary of Magdala was rejected on grounds of being female.
i based my argument on the following:
""A group of scholars have suggested that for one early group of Christians Mary Magdalene was a leader of the early Church and maybe even the unidentified Beloved Disciple, to whom the Fourth Gospel commonly called Gospel of John is ascribed. The most familiar of the scholars is Elaine Pagels.
Ramon K. Jusino, an internet writer, offers an explanation of this view, based on the textual researches of Raymond E. Brown in "Mary Magdalene, author of the Fourth Gospel?", 1998, available on-line. Ann Graham Brock (see ref.) summarized this reading of the texts in 2003. She demonstrated that an early Christian writing portrays authority as being represented in Mary Magdalene or in the church community structure.
These scholars also observe that the Mary Magdalene figure is consistently elevated in writings from which formal leadership roles are absent. In certain texts, while either the Peter or the Paul figure is more involved, Mary Magdalene's role is often diminished, while in other texts, the opposite occurs. A tug-of-war is evident between these two opposing systems of church government, revealing debates regarding the importance of the key roles of women in Biblical texts.
Scholars of the Mary who appears in the Nag Hammadi Gnostic texts have identified her with the Magdalene, even though she is merely given the (Coptic) equivalent of "Mary". However, Stephen J. Shoemaker thinks that this Mary is actually the Blessed Virgin Mary (Shoemaker 2001), that this fits in better with the notions that Mary was intimate with Jesus, was his greatest disciple, and was to be the center of Jesus' religion; Shoemaker has made a study of Marian liturgies and devotion in Early Christianity.
Further attestation of Mary of Magdala and her role among some early Christians is provided by the gnostic, apocryphal Gospel of Mary Magdalene which survives in two 3rd century Greek fragments and a longer 5th century translation into Coptic. In the Gospel the testimony of a woman first needed to be defended. All of these manuscripts were first discovered and published between 1938 and 1983, but as early as the 3rd century there are Patristic references to the Gospel of Mary. These writings reveal the degree to which that gospel was despised and dismissed by the early Church Fathers. In the fragmentary text, the disciples ask questions of the risen Savior (a designation that dates the original no earlier than the 2nd century) and are answered.
Then they grieve, saying, "How shall we go to the Gentiles and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If even he was not spared, how shall we be spared?" And Mary bids them take heart: "Let us rather praise his greatness, for he prepared us and made us into men." She then delivers ” at Peter's request ” a vision of the Savior she has had, and reports her discourse with him, which shows Gnostic influences.
Her vision does not meet with universal approval:
"But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, 'Say what you think concerning what she said. For I do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are of other ideas."
"Peter also opposed her in regard to these matters and asked them about the Savior. "Did he then speak secretly with a woman, in preference to us, and not openly? Are we to turn back and all listen to her? Did he prefer her to us?"
Karen King of Harvard Divinity School has observed, "The confrontation of Mary with Peter, a scenario also found in The Gospel of Thomas, Pistis Sophia, and The Greek Gospel of the Egyptians, reflects some of the tensions in second-century Christianity. Peter and Andrew represent orthodox positions that deny the validity of esoteric revelation and reject the authority of women to teach." (introduction, The Nag Hammadi Library)""
taken from Mary Magdalene - Wikipedia
....and yes she appears to be a prominent woman, while others tried to reject her. The question remains why? This is something i also learnt from a NG documentary, unfortunately i don't remember the title. Certain early church fathers just wouldn't want her to take an important place and what better way to do it then to call her unchaste and adulterous. I never stated she got rejected because of her gender and the subject still remains open for discussion. You can't simply avoid the suspicious similarities in how women were viewed back then, starting with Asherah as a goddess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by anastasia, posted 08-01-2007 11:41 AM anastasia has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 38 of 54 (413974)
08-02-2007 4:39 AM


NG documentary
here's the NG documentary i was talking about.
Intro:The Real Mary Magdalene
For 1,500 years Christians regarded the woman so close to Jesus as a reformed prostitute. Now, evidence suggests this may have been part of a smear campaign by the early church to remove women from the clergy. We cut through centuries of political spin to find the real Mary Magdalene.
part 1: Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
part 2: Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
part 3: Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
part 4: Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
part 5: Error 404 (Not Found)!!1

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by anastasia, posted 08-02-2007 12:18 PM Reding has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 39 of 54 (413977)
08-02-2007 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
08-01-2007 2:00 PM


Re: extremist monotheism and xenophobia
ah! a good question.
i don't want to go too into it here, as it's slightly off topic, but i will explain why: babylon. around the 6th century bce, israel was carried off into assyria. babylon conquered assyria, and judah. israel was lost.
judah stayed together with the help of the prophets -- religious leaders who preached messages that were often heavy-handed diatribes against their oppressors. xenophobia and extreme monotheism became the only way to protect their cultural identity from being absorbed into other nations and their god from being lost in a pantheon.
I’d think if the israelites were that fierce in maintaining their identity there would be no other way than to put women in a “protected” position within their culture as they are the child bearers. You know what they often do in tumultuous times. That might have lead to certain rules and so-called “prohibitions”. I’m not very familiar with the jewish culture so if anyone can shed some light . Anyway, if that’s the case then it might have led to Asherah losing her goddess status to become something less than dirt . .
On the other hand, if the refutal of Asherah is yet another later editing job, it might be a remnant of that tradition of protecting women. I can imagine that over time necessary customs and traditions can transform into a mere religious rule, to for some men a ridiculous way of keeping women on the low side . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 08-01-2007 2:00 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by arachnophilia, posted 08-02-2007 1:49 PM Reding has not replied
 Message 54 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-08-2007 9:50 AM Reding has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 48 of 54 (414547)
08-04-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by arachnophilia
08-01-2007 2:05 PM


Re: ba'al and asherot
what i really mean is that asherah seems to be the generic term for "pagan goddess." any pagan goddess.
Arach, if that was the case don't you think that scientist would differentiate all those Asherah figurines found? ...and what about "she spoke through the mouths of her prophets"?
Edited by Reding, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by arachnophilia, posted 08-01-2007 2:05 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by arachnophilia, posted 08-04-2007 8:12 PM Reding has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 49 of 54 (414549)
08-04-2007 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Hyroglyphx
08-02-2007 9:31 PM


Re: Ishtar, Asherah, Molech, Ba'al etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....
Actually, its 10 times.
No, it's 40, you must be thinking of Ashtoreth
They don't need to be patriarchal. Judaism, by definition, is a monotheistic religion. All that monotheism means is that you believe in one God. I'm still not understanding why you think that a female deity was specifically excommunicated simply because she was a female when the same kind of excommunications were commonplace for male deities such as Molech and Ba'al.
Is God female? there are two other possibilities, she and it! the latter would be hilarious though!
No one is contending with that though. That much seems rather obvious since Moses is having to present an argument for turning away from false gods.
Yes, thats the whole point of the discussion...
Edited by Reding, : No reason given.
Edited by Reding, : No reason given.
Edited by Reding, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-02-2007 9:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Reding
Junior Member (Idle past 6108 days)
Posts: 29
From: Belgium
Joined: 07-17-2007


Message 52 of 54 (415099)
08-08-2007 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Archer Opteryx
08-08-2007 5:25 AM


Re: The monotheistic airbrush
Good point. A downgrade in status for all deities (but one) is built into the monotheistic premise.
Revered deities in a polytheistic belief system normally move around in male-female pairs. Deities create life, after all, and everyone knows you do that by putting male and female ingredients together.
The symbolism often places the father figure in the sky and the mother figure in the earth. This is certainly true of the images we find in the ancient Near East. In an agrarian society the sexual metaphor is there for the taking: the sky fertilizes the earth (in the form of sunshine and rain) and the earth brings forth life. That life, once begun, tends to stay bound to earth, as an infant is bound to its mother.
Monotheists were obliged to take an airbrush to this familiar picture. Their premise stated that one deity exists and is eternal; everything else is finite and represents something created by this being. The main adjustment they made was to present earth as an 'it' rather than a 'she.' It was a creation of the Sky Dad, who now had to absorb the role of both parents.
In Genesis you can see pointed original images, but you can also see reworked images that show traces of the original symbolism. An example of the first comes when Elohim places "lights in the sky" as you would hang a lamp in your tent. This picture literally puts the widely esteemed deities of sun and moon in their place. Yet in creating humanity we find God supplying the breath (sky element) and the earth supplying the dust. Two 'parents' for our species are still implied.
Ultimately no symbol is ever eradicated. Symbols constantly come back--are 'reactivated', as Jung put it--as needed when people seek balance. So we find that, even with a 'no goddesses allowed' policy, ancient Hebrew writers couldn't resist pairing the deity repeatedly with female companions: Lady Wisdom, the promiscuous sisters, the Daughter of Zion and so on. Rabbinical literature presents the Shekinah arach mentions: the sabbath spirit. The female figures typically represent something earthly--a city, a people, a gathering--for which the heavenly male figure has tender feelings.
...great stuff, i especially liked this part:
"The main adjustment they made was to present earth as an 'it' rather than a 'she.' It was a creation of the Sky Dad, who now had to absorb the role of both parents."
...because it appears they also needed to define and distinguish the material(female/earth) and spiritual (male/heaven, and it iseven more so the case when obviously what can be touched (material) is also easyer to reject (referring here to the slander) since it is "known", hence there doesn't seem to be a reason to be afraid. There's ofcourse more mystery to what's harder to define, in this case the heavens and beyond, which is perfect if you want to create an almighty male god. The earth didn't seem to be good enough for some and the funny thing is when a earthly natural disaster (earthquake, eruptions,etc..) ocurred certain people often attributed it to the sky god as a retribution.
The fact of the matter remains that there can't be a sky nor life without an earth, now who's the god....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-08-2007 5:25 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-08-2007 8:58 AM Reding has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024