Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,910 Year: 4,167/9,624 Month: 1,038/974 Week: 365/286 Day: 8/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Holistic Doctors, and medicine
nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 151 of 304 (418205)
08-26-2007 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by purpledawn
08-26-2007 9:19 PM


come on, already
The following is an excerpt from a critical analysis of Naturopathy found here
Naturopathy is the most eclectic of "alternative" practices. It has changed its methods in response to popular fads and beliefs. It practices no pool of consistent diagnostic or therapeutic methods. The most notable things that unite its practitioners are a penchant for magical thinking, a weak grasp of basic science, and a rejection of scientific biomedicine, which they refer to as "allopathy." Because naturopathy lacks a coherent rationale, patients can encounter anything from commonsense lifestyle advice -- eating a healthy diet, rest, exercise, and stress reduction -- to an array of scientifically implausible nostrums and gadgets [1].
If a glue binds the diverse and changing patchwork of naturopathic practices together, it is espousal of the teachings of the early nineteenth-century romantic movement known as Naturphilosophie. The central tenet of this movement affected the romantic poets and artists of the era and some noted scientists as well -- that there is a single unifying force underlying the entirety of nature, one that steers all of its parts into a harmonious and indivisible whole [2]. Much like the concept of "Qi" in Chinese philosophy and medicine, this mystical force is said to permeate all living things. Believers in Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) assert that imbalances in the flow of Qi are responsible for disease, fatigue, etc., and that that balance between yin and yang variants of Qi is essential to health. Acupuncture, Chinese herbs, etc., supposedly restore well-being by rebalancing the flow of this spiritual essence [3]. Naturopaths explain what they do by resorting to similar metaphorical usages of the terms "balance," "harmony," and "flow," which in the final analysis boil down to synonyms for "good" and have no science-based meaning. The similarities of their theories may explain why TCM is taught in naturopathic colleges.
A corollary of Naturphilosophie is that in order to comprehend nature one must experience it as a whole -- i.e., intuitively rather than objectively and analytically. Openness to one's subjective feelings is considered the most reliable means of revealing the workings of the natural world. Not surprisingly, then, naturopathy has been quick to ally itself with the "holistic health" movement. This emphasis on "holism" helps explain the apparent indifference and/or antipathy of most naturopaths to objective, scientific research.
Naturopathy views sickness as a generalized breakdown of the body in response to "unnatural" events in the enviroment that can be remedied by overall strengthening of the body's resistance. This clashes with scientific biomedicine's view that disease is a malfunction due to specific pathogens or processes that involve identifiable organ systems. Biomedicine tailors its treatments to the system and pathologic processes that are involved, whereas naturopathy claims to "treat the whole person."
Although naturopathy uses scientific terms and assumes some of the trappings of science, it exhibits more features of pseudoscience [4] and has magical and quasi-religious roots [5]. Its claim that healing stems from a supernatural "life force" is much like the abandoned principle from prescientific biology known as elan vitale [6]. Biologists once believed that a force that distinguished living from inanimate matter was derived from a cosmos whose natural order was governed by moral laws -- as opposed to the mechanistic ones of modern science. For proponents of naturopathy, "natural laws" are not generalizations from observation and experimentation, but seem to be the moralistic dictates of an anthropomorphic "Nature" -- usually capitalized to emphasize its purposeful, theistic properties. They also postulate that health is awarded or withdrawn in accordance with one's ability to maintain harmony and balance with the animistic, vital forces of the universe. In committing itself to vitalism, naturopathy puts bodily functions outside the realm of physics, chemistry, and physiology. This is apparent in the following excerpt from the writings of Harvey Diamond, an advocate of the "Natural Hygiene" movement: "The true cause of impaired health lies in our failure to comply with the laws and requirements of life. All health problems arise from the abuse of natural laws. . . . Living healthfully is not an art that we must learn, it is an instinctive way of life to which we must return!" [5:98]
It gets more and more irrational and quacky and pseudo- and non-scientific as the article goes on to describe dianosis and treatment methods.
This is Naturopathy, PD. "Energies", "balance", "vibrations", "life force". That part of it, the basis for the philosopy, is pure, unadulterated woo.
How can you say that you haven't abandoned science and evidence and reason when you actually buy into this stuff?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by purpledawn, posted 08-26-2007 9:19 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2007 6:40 AM nator has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 152 of 304 (418206)
08-26-2007 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by purpledawn
08-26-2007 9:19 PM


Re: Time Will Tell
And what wackjob version of nutrition do they advocate?
Where to start?
From a Nu Zyme ad:
Many Americans suffer from "enzyme deficiency" that can be corrected by taking Nu-Zymes.
The American diet is generally enzyme-deficient because most of the food we consume has been cooked or processed.
Lack of enzymes in food strains the human body.
Enzyme deficiency causes heart disease, joint pain, obesity, and many other health problems that Nu-Zymes can correct.
Other enzyme nuts:
Jay Kordich, an advocate of "juicing" who claims that "live foods" are superior to cooked or processed foods because they contain "active enzymes."
CHIROPRACTOR: Howard F. Loomis, D.C. whose "Enzyme Replacement System" is based on treating "enzyme deficiency states" with products "targeted to organs stressed by subluxation." The products listed in Loomis's 1995 catalog include Chiro-Zyme, a line of "carefully formulated combinations of herbs, vitamins and minerals with plant enzymes," each named with an abbreviation for certain spinal segments and an organ or body function.
Infinity2, a multilevel company whose professional distributors used live cell analysis to persuade people they need to take enzyme pills.
Ronald Schneider, whose Web site describes him as a "leading enzymologist" and "self taught holistic nutritionist"who "has studied at the Arizona State Public Medical Library and has over 10 years of research material." Schneider claims that, "Although digestive enzymes occur naturally in our foods, they are destroyed by commercial growing, cooking and processing methods. Carbonated drinks, strenuous exercise, environmental factors and stress further deplete our enzyme stores and ability to make more enzymes for bodily functions."
NATUROPATH: National Safety Associates (NSA), which markets Juice Plus+®, based on the theories of Humbart Santillo, N.D.
Home Page | Quackwatch
From Alibaba Manufacturer Directory - Suppliers, Manufacturers, Exporters & Importers:
Are you getting all the oxygen you need for good health? If you're like most of us, you're probably not. Yet studies reveal that oxygen in your bloodstream can enhance your ability to fight infectious bacteria, microbes, and viruses. How? Oxygen in the bloodstream acts as a cleaner, helping to rid your body of the toxins that build up due to pollution. Our revolutionary, high-tech oxygen water cooler contains water with a 600% higher concentration of dissolved oxygen (as compared, say, to a mountain stream) which may help maintain your health, concentration, skin tone, and overall well being.
Brought to you by the makers of the Q Ray bracelet:
Between the stainless steel exterior and porcelain interior of this mug lies a material that magnetizes hot or cold liquids. Why? Because magnetizing water, the basis of any liquid, creates space between its molecules, adding alkalinity to water that has become acidic. Alkaline water is more readily absorbed by the body. As your tissues increase their hydration levels, your body flushes out toxins more easily.
From an ayurveda site, Access denied:
Ghee (clarified butter) ...
Balances excess stomach acid and repair the mucus lining of the stomach
Promotes learning, memory, and recall
Enhances the quantity and quality of semen and ovum for increased fertility and healthier children
Is well known as an anti-aging ingredient
Enhances the quality and quantity of Ojas, the master coordinator of mind and body.
From our friend Lorraine Day:
All diseases are caused by a combination of three factors: malnutrition, dehydration, and stress.
Or how about http://www.DynamicGreens.com, the site Percy has been meticulously dissecting (on their forum) for the past couple of weeks.
Need more?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by purpledawn, posted 08-26-2007 9:19 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2007 8:00 AM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 153 of 304 (418207)
08-26-2007 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by purpledawn
08-26-2007 9:19 PM


Re: Time Will Tell
Various disciplines fall under alternative medicine.
That's putting it mildly.
There is an incomplete list of quackery over at Home Page | Quackwatch.
There are over 1,100 items on that list.
Just a few:
* Acupuncture
* AIDS-Related Quackery and Fraud
* Algae Products: False Claims and Hype
* "Antiaging Medicine" (posted 8/26/04)
* Arthritis: Questionable Approaches (to be posted)
* Aromatherapy
* Ayurvedic
* Cancer: Questionable Therapies
* "Calorie-Blockers"
* "Candidiasis Hypersensitivity/Yeast Allergy"
* "Cellulite" Removers
* Chelation Therapy
* Chinese Medicine
* Chiropractic:
o Applied Kinesiology (updated 4/23/99)
o Contact Reflex Analysis (updated 4/16/98)
* Veterinary Chiropractic
* Colloidal Minerals
* Colloidal Silver
* Colon Therapy and Related Quackery
* Craniosacral Therapy
* Holistic Dentistry
o The "Mercury Toxicity"
o Neuralgia Inducing Cavitational Osteonecrosis (NICO)
* "Detoxification" Schemes
* DHEA
* Dietary Supplements, Herbs, and Hormones
* Dubious Diagnostic Tests
* Ear Candling
* Electrodiagnostic Device Quackery
* "Ergogenic Aids"
* Fad Diets
* Faith Healing
* Genetic Testing Scams
* Glucosamine for Arthritis
* Gamma-hydroxybutyric Acid
* Hair Analysis: A Cardinal Sign of Quackery
* Herbal Practices and Products
* Hyperbaric Medicine: What Works and What Does Not?
* Iridology (updated 8/20/04)
* Juice Plus+®
* Low-Carbohydrate Diets (including Atkins Diet)
* Macrobiotics
* Magnet Therapy
* Massage Therapy
* Orthomolecular Therapy
* Psychomotor Patterning
* Metabolic Therapy
* Multiple Chemical Sensitivity
* Naturopathy
* Osteopathy
* Pneumatic Trabeculoplasty (PNT)
* Qigong
* Reflexology
* Therapeutic Touch
Need more?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by purpledawn, posted 08-26-2007 9:19 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2007 6:59 AM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 162 by riVeRraT, posted 08-27-2007 10:31 AM molbiogirl has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 154 of 304 (418256)
08-27-2007 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by nator
08-26-2007 11:01 PM


Re: come on, already
quote:
This is Naturopathy, PD. "Energies", "balance", "vibrations", "life force". That part of it, the basis for the philosopy, is pure, unadulterated woo.
And my ND hasn't once mentioned engergies, vibrations, or life force. I'm not sure why you have a problem with the idea of balance.
The medical system has been advocating balance for quite a while. Balanced diet, don't overwork, don't over exercise, don't get over stressed. IOW, keep in balance. Don't want too much of a good thing or a bad thing.
Hasn't science shown the ill effects of too much stress, too much food, too much alcohol, too little food, too little exercise, etc.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by nator, posted 08-26-2007 11:01 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by nator, posted 08-27-2007 10:14 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 155 of 304 (418258)
08-27-2007 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by molbiogirl
08-26-2007 11:26 PM


Chaff from the Wheat
Are you actually responding to what I'm saying or just trying to see if you can list more stuff from quackwatch than nator?
PD writes:
Various disciplines fall under alternative medicine. I've simply said it will take time to see what comes out in the wash. I've already agreed that there are quacks and that tougher standards need to be set. I want them to be licensed. But it takes time and when money and politics are involved it takes more time.
Remember the quote you provided in Message 145
...Once a treatment has been tested rigorously, it no longer matters whether it was considered alternative at the outset. If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted.
It will take time to separate the wheat from the chaff. That means we select what is useful or valuable and reject what is useless or worthless.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 11:26 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by molbiogirl, posted 08-27-2007 10:26 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3487 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 156 of 304 (418261)
08-27-2007 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by molbiogirl
08-26-2007 11:09 PM


Advertisements?
You gave me advertisements. Do I then assume that any item hawked by an MD is representative of what medical science advocates?
Andrew Weil, M.D. - Nutritional Supplements
Julian Whitaker, MD. and his most popular products
And I can't forget nator's favorite: William A. McGarey, M.D. - The Oil That Heals, A Physician's Successes With Castor Oil Treatments
So what wackjob version of nutrition do those who aren't selling their own products or health systems advocate?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 11:09 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by molbiogirl, posted 08-27-2007 10:28 AM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 157 of 304 (418274)
08-27-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by purpledawn
08-27-2007 6:40 AM


Re: come on, already
quote:
And my ND hasn't once mentioned engergies, vibrations, or life force.
If some of the terminology has fallen out of fashion among some ND's, the mystical, woo-woo ideas of vitalism and the "unifying life force" is still the foundation of Naturopathy.
That is what they teach in their schools. That is the basis of their diagnoses and treatments.
Those concepts are antithetical to science, reason, and evidence.
What say you to the article I linked to and posted an excerpt from?
quote:
I'm not sure why you have a problem with the idea of balance.
What does "balance" mean, specifically, in the context of this discussion?
How is it defined?
I've asked this of you before, IIRC.
I have also searched naturopathic websites in vain trying to find a definition.
quote:
The medical system has been advocating balance for quite a while. Balanced diet, don't overwork, don't over exercise, don't get over stressed. IOW, keep in balance. Don't want too much of a good thing or a bad thing.
That is hardly the way that Naturopathy uses the term, however vaguely it is used.
From what I've been able to gather from reading Naturopathic websites, they use the term "balance" to mean, '"When all of a person's vitalistic life force energies and vibrations are "good", they will not have any disease, and those forces and energies can then be said to be "balanced."'
The problem with that idea is that it has no rational or empirical basis whatsoever. Furthermore, it is meaningless. It provides no explanation for what is different in a "balanced" body compared to an "unbalanced" body.
quote:
Hasn't science shown the ill effects of too much stress, too much food, too much alcohol, too little food, too little exercise, etc.
Yes, absolutely.
But we understand the physiological effects and biochemistry of these things, and their effects of the body. We understand them becasue we have done hundreds of rigorous, pinpointed, laborious controlled studies that eventually let us understand why. Once we understand the why, we can then develop evidence-based treatments, therapies, and lifestyle and nutrition guidelines, and then test those under controlled conditions to see if they work.
Naturopathy does none of this.
Yes, Naturopathy includes some valid, evidence-based information in its practice, but it also incorporates utterly unsupported quackery and pseudoscience ito its practices. How can you possibly say that a method of healing that is not fundamentally based in science, but instead is based upon the mystical concept of vitalism combined with a healthy portion of pseudoscience "has its place" right alongside modern, science-based medicine?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2007 6:40 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2007 2:45 PM nator has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 158 of 304 (418276)
08-27-2007 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by molbiogirl
08-26-2007 8:18 PM


Re: Chiropractics
Chiro is full of bunk.
Then why do insurance companies cover your visits?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 8:18 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by jar, posted 08-27-2007 10:19 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 164 by molbiogirl, posted 08-27-2007 10:37 AM riVeRraT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 159 of 304 (418277)
08-27-2007 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by riVeRraT
08-27-2007 10:17 AM


Re: Chiropractics
Then why do insurance companies cover your visits?
Because they can make money off it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by riVeRraT, posted 08-27-2007 10:17 AM riVeRraT has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 160 of 304 (418279)
08-27-2007 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by purpledawn
08-27-2007 6:59 AM


Re: Chaff from the Wheat
the wheat from the chaff
What "alternative" medicine would you consider "wheat"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2007 6:59 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2007 2:55 PM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 161 of 304 (418281)
08-27-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by purpledawn
08-27-2007 8:00 AM


Re: Advertisements?
Andrew Weil, M.D. - Nutritional Supplements
Julian Whitaker, MD. and his most popular products
Possessing an MD does not mean "immune to bunk".
An MD can be just as deluded as Lorraine Day.
So what wackjob version of nutrition do those who aren't selling their own products or health systems advocate?
That's the point!
I spent over an hour and a half last night looking at altie woo and they all sell either their own nostrums or someone else's.
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.
Edited by molbiogirl, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2007 8:00 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2007 2:50 PM molbiogirl has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 446 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 162 of 304 (418284)
08-27-2007 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by molbiogirl
08-26-2007 11:26 PM


Re: Time Will Tell
I just want to point out that the founder of quakwatch.org, has a vested interest in promoting all that is said there.
http://www.quackwatch.org/10Bio/bio.html
Ch Source Book
Ch Source Book
Which does not make it invalid, but the same has been said for most of the neuropathology stuff.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 11:26 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by molbiogirl, posted 08-27-2007 10:35 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 165 by jar, posted 08-27-2007 10:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 163 of 304 (418285)
08-27-2007 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by riVeRraT
08-27-2007 10:31 AM


Re: Time Will Tell
I just want to point out that the founder of quakwatch.org, has a vested interest in promoting all that is said there.
Dr. Barrett has a book. So?
From his bio:
In 1984, he received an FDA Commissioner's Special Citation Award for Public Service in fighting nutrition quackery. In 1986, he was awarded honorary membership in the American Dietetic Association. From 1987 through 1989, he taught health education at The Pennsylvania State University. He is listed in Marquis Who's Who in America and received the 2001 Distinguished Service to Health Education Award from the American Association for Health Education.
Dr. Barrett is fighting the good fight.
Unfortunately, given the unlimited gullibility of the American public, it's like sweeping back the ocean with a broom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by riVeRraT, posted 08-27-2007 10:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by riVeRraT, posted 08-27-2007 11:11 AM molbiogirl has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2671 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 164 of 304 (418286)
08-27-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by riVeRraT
08-27-2007 10:17 AM


Re: Chiropractics
Then why do insurance companies cover your visits?
As I pointed out upthread, insurance companies have joined the fight to combat chiro bunk.
In the UK, homeopathy is covered by government insurance.
That doesn't mean homeopathics are anything other than tap water.
It just means bad government.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by riVeRraT, posted 08-27-2007 10:17 AM riVeRraT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 165 of 304 (418291)
08-27-2007 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by riVeRraT
08-27-2007 10:31 AM


Re: Time Will Tell
I just want to point out that the founder of quakwatch.org, has a vested interest in promoting all that is said there.
Actually, all your links show is that Dr. Barrett has a vested interest in exposing fraud.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by riVeRraT, posted 08-27-2007 10:31 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by riVeRraT, posted 08-27-2007 11:12 AM jar has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024