Sequel Thread To Holistic Doctors, and medicine

My ND prescribes diet and vitamins as the most potent methods of healing.Gold-standard studies on vitamins have been done. Vitamin C continues to be tested now. In the cases of vitamins C and E, after pioneering work was done with them, subsequent well-publicised and flawed studies trashed the reputations of the people who did the original research. There's no anecdote here, just tragedy that such important work has been ridiculed or forgotten.We've spoken about vitamin C here. It seems that there's a growing revival of interest in vitamin E now too. Vitamin E factsA call for more clinical trials for vitamin ENew/Old Findings on Unique Vitamin EVitamin E: Back Full CircleClinical studies have also been done on herbs like ginkgo biloba.I'm tired of people here telling me my evidence is all anecdotal.

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I think we'll have to agree to disagree. The only substances I use for my healing are food, vitamins, and a couple of herbs for the adrenaline dysfunction. I'm not in danger of side effects or death. These substances are safer than aspirin and penicillin.

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What testing for safety and efficacy have those herbs undergone?

There have been trials done on ashwagandha, relora, and ginkgo. Their safety? Thanks for your concern. Ashwagandha has been used in Ayurvedic medicine for hundreds if not thousands of years. Don't try to tell me that drugs like neuroleptics and antidepressants are safe because they have been through clinical trials and FDA approval. If that's what you really believe then I don't think I stand much chance of bursting your bubble after everything I've already said here.I wouldn't take those herbs if it weren't for the adrenal dysfunction that, strangely, started exactly when I came off the antidepressant. I cannot actually go out to work unless I take them because I become a jittery mass of jelly and cannot function. I thank Christ or whoever for their existence because they work for me and I see proof of it daily. I don't take the relora on days when I don't work because then it depresses my cortisol too much and I feel sluggish. These are very noticeable effects I'm experiencing. I'm all for more tests of these herbs if it means more people can be helped by them.

Those two herbs you mentioned that you are taking?What studies have been done to test their safety and efficacy?

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There have been trials done on ashwagandha, relora, and ginkgo.

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And what were the results?

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Their safety? Thanks for your concern. Ashwagandha has been used in Ayurvedic medicine for hundreds if not thousands of years.

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OK.What does that have to do with my question about safety and efficacy?Let's see the evidence.

LindaLou, are you sure you wish to pass over the rest of my message?This bit: Surely you aren't claiming that every CAM treatment or product is tested in this way before people put them to market, are you?Also, it illustrates how poor a method personal experience is in determining if a drug really works or not, right?Edited by nator, : No reason given.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

ginkgo: Reduction of rise in blood pressure and cortisol release during stress by Ginkgo biloba extract (EGb 761) in healthy volunteers.That is the indication for which I use it. There have been over 1000 studies done on ginkgo. Apparently a safety evaluation is currently being conducted by the US National Toxicology Program.ashwagandha (withania somnifera): A 32-Week Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Clinical Evaluation of RA-11, an Ayurvedic Drug, on Osteoarthritis of the Knees.Effect of Withania somnifera root extract on reserpine-induced orofacial dyskinesia and cognitive dysfunction.Neuritic regeneration and synaptic reconstruction induced by withanolide A.relora, a blend of magnolia officinalis phellodendron amurense:Can't get the link to work for this one, for some reason. Type the above into PubMed and you will find "Effect of a proprietary Magnolia and Phellodendron extract on weight management: a pilot, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial."I would like to see many more studies done. These are obviously not enough. However I do not think it's likely we'll be seeing many more vitamin or herb clinical studies until the pharmaceuticals' influence is largely removed and clinical trials are done by independent organizations. If most of the money comes from pharmaceuticals then it's their drugs that are going to be the focus of the trials.

You haven't said anything for me to take issue with. Sure I'd like to see naturopathic remedies go through well-conducted and fair tests. Many of them have been studied to some extent at least. But until someone like the FDA officially sanctions them, what do you expect people to do? Should I stop taking my herbs because they are not FDA-approved, even though it means sitting at home being depressed and unable to earn an income because I can't work? I cannot function without them. I've had to try if I've forgotten to take them. If I don't take relora on days when I work, I am a quivering jelly. I don't need it on days when I'm at home. You don't have to believe me, I don't care, but those herbs are my lifeline.Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.

I thought you were all about treating the root causes, not the symptoms. Seems to me like you have root cause issues am I right? Out of interest, have you seen any studies about the effects of withdrawal of whatever you are taking?

What if relora is revealed in 5 years to be a carcinogen when taken at the doses your ND prescribes? How do you know you aren't taking 10 times the dose that would still work but not cause this hypothestical cancer?How do you know what possible food or drug interactions might exist for relora? Is relora safe for someone to take if they decide to become pregnant? Does it affect the uptake of any nutrients?If a drug has such a profount effect upon you, then it has the potential to have profound, long-term detrimental effects, too. You choose to play russian roulette, since the anwers to the above questions are unknown.If you truly believe these drugs are effective and have zero side effects and in general are the perfect wonder drugs you obviously think they are, then you should be fighting tooth and nail to get them properly tested so they can be shared with the rest of the world.You should be on our side, not on the side of non-science and emotionally-laden anecdote.And I second Modulus' point. You are treating your symptoms with a drug. Relora is a drug if it really does what you say it does. Your ND prescribed you a drug along with nutrition and supplements. It is just an untested drug that we don't know anything about.Funny, my doctor put me on a multivitamin and monitors my exercise habits, too. Edited by nator, : No reason given.

The cites, with the exception of 3, are quack "journals".The 3 that were published in reputable journals have nothing to do with "heart scurvy". There's a big difference between researching the relationship between cholesterol and heart disease and "heart scurvy".One has nothing to do with the other.

No.Dominik Feld's cancer was a documented fact.News: Breaking stories & updates - The Telegraph

You still seem to be presenting this one incident as proof that Dr. Rath is a total nutcase. The BMJ ran the story but had to retract it and issue an apology to Rath, saying that the allegations they'd published were without foundation. A subsequent libel claim by Rath was settled for 100,000.

The Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine is not a quack journal, though it's clear you see it that way. Pauling's reputation in vitamin C research had been destroyed by the Mayo Clinic, remember? After their flawed studies they fervently insisted that no one else do any more vitamin C studies. Pauling published in the JOM because no one else wanted to listen.Laugh at "heart scurvy" all you want. Some open-minded, far-sighted people will hopefully take this up and do some serious research on it. The Vitamin C Foundation attempted this in 1998 and 2002 but both requests were rejected by NIH. Vitamin C is a powerful anti-cholesterol agent

I told you, you're lucky. It sounds like you have a doctor who is really worth their salt.Scare me some more with horror scenarios about herbs why don't you. Like I said, plenty of FDA-approved drugs have the ability to profoundly harm people but they are prescribed nevertheless. I've said I agree that herbs should be tested. I listed some clinical trials for you. You can look them up and see what the safety indications were if you want. Personally, taking any of them in pregnancy isn't an issue for me anyway because I would not take any herbs while I'm pregnant. I wouldn't take any risks there whatsoever. Same goes for prescription drugs.I'm not on anybody's "side." And I'm not just giving anecdotes. I've cited clinical trials here for vitamins and herbs. Someone has convinced you that these things are mysterious and dangerous. Look. If you're telling me that neuroleptics ought to be prescribed despite the fact that they can cause tardive dyskinesia -- because they are FDA approved -- then why on earth are you so horrified that I take a herb for cortisol regulation?