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Author Topic:   Why haven't we observed mutations of new body parts?
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 53 of 99 (423586)
09-22-2007 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
09-03-2007 12:02 PM


Re: Is it even possible?
But that's just nonsense. We have examples of the transitions all the way through. You've even been shown them. But here you are again, forgetting completely that you've even seen them, because you have the crazy idea that it's against your religion.
Do we really have examples of the transitions all the way through? For
all
wing devopments? It seems that wing development in entomology hasn't been addressed, and this should create a bigger problem to evolution than whatever ornithology could pose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 09-03-2007 12:02 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 10:42 AM BattleAxeDime has replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 55 of 99 (423674)
09-23-2007 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by RAZD
09-23-2007 10:42 AM


Re: Is it even possible?
...The insect wing has evolved several times in several different lineages.
I don't know much about evolutionary biological development, but I was under the Impression that wings were present in insect ancestory since the beginning of it's divergence from Crustacea. The insects that do not have wings evolved to that stage from winged ancestors (i.e. siphonaptera from mecoptera). I thought that Stoneflies had evolved from a protelytropteran like ancestor along with many other major orders of insecta all containing wings.
Wouldn't it be pointless to try to experiment on wing development on an insect that is believed to have recieved it's wings from an ancestor of a different taxa? I believe that my information is dated, and I would be very grateful if you could give me a link to a better phylogenetic tree.
Aren't Stoneflies on the Neopterous stock and the "...other aqautic nymphs..." that Matthew Holm is referring to in the Paleopterous stock. So these insects aren't even monopyletic right? Then what would be point of even mentioning examples from other insects if it isn't even in the lineage of the insect in question?
If your statement
The insect wing has evolved several times in different lineages
is true than why would James Marden be expermenting with wing development when he could be studying the evolutionary development of the stoneflies feet. [qoute]...the feet are covered with water-resistant hairs and are filled with gas[/qoute] Which seems to be very specific to the stonefly. Is it because if the feet were not how they are now the stonefly would have no way to float on the water? It kinda creates an irriducible complexity issue. If it weren't for the feet than the wings would be pointless, why doesn't the biologist try to tackle the harder question? If he solved this tougher question than his hypothesis would be easier to prove.
Thank you so much for the links I really enjoyed watching the videos.

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 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 10:42 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 6:01 PM BattleAxeDime has replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 56 of 99 (423680)
09-23-2007 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by RAZD
09-23-2007 10:42 AM


Re: Is it even possible?
Oops! I never gave the link to the Insectal phylogenetic tree I was using.
here it is Britannica

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 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 10:42 AM RAZD has not replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 58 of 99 (423694)
09-23-2007 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by RAZD
09-23-2007 6:01 PM


Re: Insect Wing Evolution
True lots of bugs have the ability to walk on water, but none share a common ancestor with the stonefly. For example water striders belong to a completely different stock. Personally I think it would be exciting to see what scientists come up with!
Thank you for the pdf file I am unfamiliar with the different subfamilies(I think), so I will have to research each name and it will take me a while.
It almost appears that scientist are just not that interested in insect wing development, and there hasn't been any major theories that have been experimented on. As a creationist I don't see why we haven't majorly questioned the Darwinian theory from this angle. A lot of times creationists attack evolution on what seems to me to be a "long shot".
I am still trying to familiarize myself with certain "Evolution terms" such as the Cambrian explosion. Would insect wing development be apart of this explosion? Is this term even viable anymore? And what is the dating that this supposedly happenend?

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 Message 57 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 6:01 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 7:52 PM BattleAxeDime has replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 60 of 99 (423716)
09-23-2007 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by RAZD
09-23-2007 7:52 PM


Re: Insect Wing Evolution
Thank you very much I enjoyed the conversation

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 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 7:52 PM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Raphael, posted 09-29-2007 4:43 AM BattleAxeDime has replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 67 of 99 (424990)
09-29-2007 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Raphael
09-29-2007 4:43 AM


Re: Insect Wing Evolution
I find it amazing that there are so many evolutionists out there. I thought there would be more Creationist-Evolutionist clashes on this website but there's really more Evolutionist-Evolutionist clashes.
Why are you replying to me? Are you implying that I am an evolutionist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Raphael, posted 09-29-2007 4:43 AM Raphael has not replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 78 of 99 (426773)
10-08-2007 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Taz
10-07-2007 11:44 AM


Re: New body parts and bilateral symmetry
Irreducible complexity is a bullshit term coined by creationists/IDists to deceive the gullible.
For a starter, you could ask him what he means by irreducile complexity is, considering that everything we know now were one time too irreducibly complex for people to understand. The circulartory system was once irreducibly complex. Orbital mechanics was once irreducibly complex. The atom was once irreducibly complex.
But you see, we do make progress. We do try to figure out the complex part of whatever the mechanism we are exploring and after we are done it is no longer irreducibly complex.
By saying something is irreducibly complex and therefore it is an indication of design is like saying goddunit so we could never know what's behind the wall.
I believe you don't understand the meaning of Irreducible complexity. Try looking it up.
You give yourself away when you refer to the "irreducible complexity" of an atom. Evolution doesn't concern the development of the atom. In fact, I'd guess that a majority of evolutionists consider nature and its elements to be without beginning.
Irreducible complexity concerns the inability of a biological unit to function without any one of its parts, and thus the corresponding conclusion that the unit could not have evolved through slow steps, each intermediate step being essentially non-functional.
It doesn't have anything to do with the ability of modern science to understand something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Taz, posted 10-07-2007 11:44 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2007 7:34 PM BattleAxeDime has not replied
 Message 83 by Taz, posted 10-09-2007 1:27 PM BattleAxeDime has replied
 Message 95 by NosyNed, posted 10-13-2007 2:49 PM BattleAxeDime has not replied

  
BattleAxeDime
Junior Member (Idle past 5979 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-19-2007


Message 94 of 99 (427901)
10-13-2007 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Taz
10-09-2007 1:27 PM


Re: New body parts and bilateral symmetry
I'm sorry I took so long to reply back.
Have you seen my earlier agrument for IC with the insectal wing? Entomology is really all I can debate on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Taz, posted 10-09-2007 1:27 PM Taz has not replied

  
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