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Author Topic:   Why haven't we observed mutations of new body parts?
NosyNed
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Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 99 (419206)
09-01-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Hyroglyphx
09-01-2007 1:57 PM


IDist position
As for the creationist/ID'ist viewpoint, they might say that it just further supports that large mutational changes act adversely in the wild as aberrations that nature weeds out, rather than fixes in a population.
Since when is this an IDist (or creationist) postition?
It seems to me that if there is a very powerful, intelligent designer then she/he/it could make the large changes that we can make in a human design. In fact, the idea of IC (irreducible complexity) is exactly this- that the designer can bring all the parts together at once and so make a large change.
You are exactly 180 degrees from the actual case with the above.
I too have wondered this, supposing that evolution were true, being that all quadra and bipedal animals could certainly make use of something like wings.
NJ, you have been here long enough by now to answer your "wonder" above. A modest understanding of evolutionary biology would stop anyone from making such a statment. Maybe it is a bit more than you can handle after all, eh?
Since we do have a "littering" of examples the rest of your post is about as far off the mark as the quoted parts.

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 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-01-2007 1:57 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

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 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-01-2007 2:50 PM NosyNed has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 11 of 99 (419212)
09-01-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Hyroglyphx
09-01-2007 2:50 PM


God's micromanagement and ID
I certainly don't believe God micromanages every aspect of life, nor have I ever alluded to thinking anything along those lines. So I'm unclear on what you are actually objecting to.
It doesn't matter to the ID movement what your position is. Their position is precisely that God micromanages at the biochemical level (e.g., blood clotting and bacterial flagellae). The majority (if not all) IDists also believe that an omnipotent god is the micromanager so I would take it as obvious that not only minor changes are possible but also something like a fully formed pair of feathered wings in addition to the other limbs of a quadraped (e.g., Pegasus and angels). To suggest otherwise is to belie what the Discovery Institute appears to be trying to say (not that they are clear or consistent).
Its an argument against the assertion of abundant beneficial mutations, which evolution needs in order to be a viable theory.
Of course, evolutionary processes work precisely because they don't require abundant beneficial mutations. The process is a hugely wasteful one (half of all things you call human thrown away over and over again) and slowly conserves and accumulates whatever beneficial mutations do appear. They don't need to be "abundant" at all. (of course, who knows what you mean by abundant).
Your question concerning Pegasus has been answered already. You should be embarrassed for not being able to answer it yourself. That is better reaction than getting all upset about being condescended to when you have had the time and considerable effort made by others to help you understand. At this point in time my inclination is to not invest time but rather pat you on the head and send you to the vocational training class.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 16 of 99 (419272)
09-01-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
09-01-2007 9:32 PM


quoting Rr
Another typical failure of logic and understanding. That any organism could "make use" of a feature is no cause for such development -- there is no directed purpose to evolution
This is another typical two-step. See, when someone mentions that Coelacanth have changed very little, they say its evidence that nature does what works, even if it is not intentional. But you say that somehow doesn't apply in reverse. If avian somehow made great use of wings, and nature has even produced crude wings for gliding in some mammals, reptiles, and fish, then why didn't other species of the same Kingdom keep these traits as well?
Thus, you just invent ad hoc reasons that sound plausible as a way of justifying something that is clearly hypocritical and nonsensical.
All one can say is "blink". :rolleyes"
Sigh Nem, it is truly amazing. Here's a hint: The fishy thing HAD the traits selected for and maintained (though you are, yet again, wrong, the fishy thing has changed quite a bit). What you started off suggesting that something NOT present would appear BECAUSE it would be useful. They are very, muito, mucho different cases.
Shall we step back to square one:
Changes (new traits) arise from thing like mutations. These are NOT directed; they aren't influenced by what would work nicely. Selection then acts on them and if what has been produced is a bit useful it is kept. If the trait doesn't happen to pop up then it can not be selected for.
If you have questions on that try asking.

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 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-01-2007 9:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 81 of 99 (426806)
10-08-2007 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by crashfrog
10-08-2007 7:34 PM


IC parts
No irreducibly complex structure has ever been found.
If IC is defined as something that won't function if a piece is taken away then there are lots of IC parts. However, that doesn't say anything about their evolution (as you point out).

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 Message 80 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2007 7:34 PM crashfrog has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 95 of 99 (427909)
10-13-2007 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by BattleAxeDime
10-08-2007 5:56 PM


Irreducible complexity
Irreducible complexity concerns the inability of a biological unit to function without any one of its parts, and thus the corresponding conclusion that the unit could not have evolved through slow steps, each intermediate step being essentially non-functional.
I think you have it exactly right! That is the way the IDists have defined IC.
However, it has pretty much nothing to do with the evolution of biological structures in the real world.

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