Message 1 of 121 (428823) 10-17-2007 6:09 PM

Again over time, water will fill the cracks and when it freezes enlarge the cracks, eventually breaking off pieces.

Again, over time the pieces are transported from higher elevations to lower ones by wind, water and gravity. During transportation they are broken up further, becoming smaller and smaller pieces.

Nothing is needed other than processes we can see at work today and lots of time.

So what is a Flood model for making sand?

Edited by TrueChristian, : No reason given.

Message 3 of 121 (428910) 10-18-2007 3:55 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by jar 10-17-2007 6:09 PM

Maybe God made sand during the creation week so that YECers had a place to firmly stick their heads...

Sorry couldn't resist.

Message 5 of 121 (429010) 10-18-2007 11:46 AM

Reply to: Message 4 by cavediver 10-18-2007 10:04 AM

Or Hovinds giant comet brought all the sand, or it was trapped in the ice/water canopy...

The massive tectonic activities during the flood could have ground up all the uhh... silicates, to make sand.

I tried, I can't it work though.

Message 7 of 121 (429285) 10-19-2007 12:51 AM

Reply to: Message 6 by The Matt 10-18-2007 2:49 PM

This is more interesting question than I previously thought.

Here is a really nice article on sand that was originally published in Scientific American by Walter Mack and Elizabeth Leistikow

http://www.aplmicro.com/sands.pdf

YECers never mention what wonderful aspect of the world wide flood was suppose to create huge (really huge) deposits of sand. Of all the mechanisms involved in the generation of sand a flood would only supply mechanical action as in high velocity stream flows - there were no freeze/thaw cycles.

However the flood is a 40 day event (or a year if you like). The events from such a flood would be sporadic and not sustained and could not therefore be capable of generated huge deposits of uniform sand.

For some empirical evidence, I live on the great Missoula flood plain. This was a cataclysmic event that that sent a wall of water initially 2000 ft high at speeds approaching 100 mph across Idaho Washington and Oregon. The city of Portland was once under 250 ft of water from this flood. Incredibly there is evidence that this Ice Age flood event occurred approximately 40 separate times on a cycle of roughly 50 years.

And guess what? There is very little sand to be found, our beaches are typically of course gravels and large boulders.

But it gets more impossible for the "young earth model" . . .

In reading the above reference article i learned (yeah I don't travel much) that many tropical beaches are almost 100% of biological origin - consisting of fragments of marine invertebrates and even plants products.

Now consider the number of generations of animals that would be required to create such immense deposits. Also many of these deposits are in the process of being recycled as these shells erode and dissolve back to the sea.

Any YECers want to put pen to paper and venture a calculation?

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

Message 8 of 121 (429323) 10-19-2007 7:19 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by jar 10-17-2007 6:09 PM

This is the creationist model for sand creation:

And God said, "Let there be sand". And there was sand.

This is one area where the "apparent age" idea can actually work. God creates earth 'in the beginning' (Gen 1:1), and in it sand features prominently. And dust too (needed later for "Project Adam").

So, flood just mixes sand around and redistributes it. A bit of sand is made, from eroding Grand Canyons, but otherwise sand is older than Adam.

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!

Message 9 of 121 (429361) 10-19-2007 1:03 PM

Reply to: Message 8 by Doddy 10-19-2007 7:19 AM

But then there is the issue of biological derived sand. Was this sand created in the form of deceased little critters?

Also there is the issue of large deposits of sand where the source rock formations are suspiciously right next door. If God made sand out of nothing why does he so often make sand when the base rock is close by.

Hmmmm.

Message 12 of 121 (429708) 10-21-2007 12:53 PM

I suppose if pushed YECers would have to resort to sand being made in the creation week.

Message 13 of 121 (429825) 10-21-2007 10:39 PM

Reply to: Message 12 by iceage 10-21-2007 12:53 PM

No, if pushed, about 25% of them would come up with that. The others would come up with hypotheses completely inconsistent with that that are also stupid and wrong.

'Scuse me, I am feeling a bit testy right now.

Message 14 of 121 (429830) 10-21-2007 10:52 PM

Reply to: Message 12 by iceage 10-21-2007 12:53 PM

Tas Walker alludes to some mechanisms here: Tas Walker's Biblical Geology: Shifting Sands. Maybe looking at his references would be interesting too.

But yes, by far the most common explanation is that sand was always around (since the beginning), but the flood carried it around, depositing lots of it in some areas and not much in others.

How certain can we be that some of the sand was biologically derived? Maybe I could write a letter to Tas Walker and ask him to explain it (he is a fellow Aussie).

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!

Message 15 of 121 (429863) 10-22-2007 4:30 AM

Reply to: Message 12 by iceage 10-21-2007 12:53 PM

Lots of sand in the Sahara, yes, but it may have formed fairly quickly. I'm sure that there are plenty of examples elsewhere that would cause greater problems for young earthers, like your sandstone one.

quote:

---

One of the most striking climate changes of the past 11,000 years caused the abrupt desertification of the Saharan and Arabia regions midway through that period. The resulting loss of the Sahara to agricultural pursuits may be an important reason that civilizations were founded along the valleys of the Nile, the Tigris, and the Euphrates.

---

From:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990712080500.htm