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Author | Topic: Anyone else notice this pattern? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
rahvin writes: That's why I was pointing out that lack of education is not a positive. Sweatshops are bad, even if they give us cheap shoes. Hell...they aren't even cheap. It isn't a positive for the uneducated. I was pointing out that it is a positive for those who benefit from those who are uneducated. Right down the line. It isn't about you getting not so cheap shoes. It is about being paid slave wages to make these shoes. They get paid 5cents to make them and you pay $75 to wear them. Where is the proffit going?
rahvin writes: I would respond that, while such a position is supported by the text of Genesis, there is no corroborative evidence to give this story any more credence than any other myth. You're moving the goalposts. I don't tell Creationists what Creationism is. I listen for them to tell me what their position is, and if I see a flaw in their argument or a falsehood, I point it out. Evolutionists don't dictate to Creationists what Creationists believe - we let them say what they believe, and then we argue against that position. The scriptures(biblical) come under both forms. In most cases, where accounts are concerned, we are looking at historical records. However, it is impossible to apply one given set of standards and expect to accurately interpret the bible.They key it would seem is to try and obtain as much historical and supporting data on the scripture in question. Chances are, you will find sufficient information(validated) through past research to obtain a credible interpretation. rahvin writes: Creationists, however, come and attack Evolution from faulty positions, like claiming that, since Evolution predicts monkeys should give birth to housecats, or since Evolution predicts that we should see new life in a peanut butter jar, and both of these positions are false, Evolution must also be false. ha ha ha. C'mon? They are winding you up and you are falling for it.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Assuming that you are trying to create a comparable example - the question should be over what the Bible says - not over what really happened. In that case I would read the relevant chapter of Genesis, and note that it refers to the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". If this is a relevant distinction in the context of the discussion I would point it out, quoting the relevant verses. If it is not relevant then I would accept that. Would you dispute the belief that adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge, especially from someone who truly believes in an all powerful god and that the bible was inspired by god?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
As several have mentioned, I do not respond on their subject but on the flaws of their subject. If someone claims a magical sky pixie created dinosaurs and humans to live together over a 3 day time frame, then I point out the inconsistency of that view with the evidence. What idiot came up with that scenerio?
Well, that would be a red herring and I would call it as such. The only relevance it would have is if the Christian tried to use it to putty in the plot holes of their world view to try and explain away imperfections and mutation. I'll make it a bit easier. What if the question had been, "where did good and evil originate? What would be your answer? Would you be able to prove their biblical answer incorrect using the scientific methods you seem to worship. "Thou shalt have no other god but me!"
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
I am pointing out to you, Ringo that you don't know everything about your chosen subject, either. Your sloppy thinking on biblical matters is usually consistent with sloppy thinking in matters scientific.
I'd start with a nitpick:
At last, honesty!
I'd also mention that - literally true or not - the important point in the Adam and Eve story is that they acquired the knowledge of good and evil, not how they acquired it. Why is acquiring knowledge of good and evil an important point? There isn't a point! It's just a statement.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
noseyned writes: You can take any misconception you think any scientist has and start out treating it as if it is mine. Open a thread on that topic and ask me to comment on it and I'll tell you if it is my "misconception" or not. I've had a similar suggestion before but I prefer this one. Leave it with me and I'll see what I can do. I like a challenge.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
jar writes: But the term misconception also includes the concept that I am unaware of the errors, since if I was aware of them I would change that particular held belief. Exactly and yet the evolutionists point out that creationists beliefs are in fact misconceptions when they are not. They are strongly held beliefs. This has been the whole point that when a strongly held belief is held, the individual could not see it as a misconception. We all have strong justifications for our beliefs from - mum told me, to god told me, to science proves it.
If someone should find within that body of conceptions some that are wrong, then by all means I would hope that the finder would point them out to me and make their best possible case in support of their point of view. I'll keep trying Edited by Heinrik, : No reason given.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
razd writes: Yet you didn't answer the question -- who do I ask to find out? My neighbor? My dad? My mechanic? Precisely, you can't. You would have to voice a concept that someone else disagrees with and then they would have to point out your misconception. Then your dilemma would be........
razd writes: How do I know that you know enough to correct or clarify my misunderstanding? You could just as easily be spreading your misunderstanding instead. How do we come to believe that anything is real? What do you use? Great question. I'm stumped. I will give it some thought
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
I watched the clip and also checked out the full dvd by eternal productions and I believe it is taken out of context, both in the clip and in the minds of the non-creationists'. As it's shown, it is amusing.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
rahvin writes: Which completely ignores the entire point of my statement. Lack of education, lack of critical thinking skills, and general idiocy has no positive. Some unethical people will take advantage of it, but it is never a good thing for the people who lack those skills. No it's never a good thing for those who lack the skills but it's a really good thing for the economy, for proffits, for shareholders, for cheaper merchandise, having people to do the menial work that more educated would not stoop to do. Lots of positives for many.There are two sides to every coin. And now you arent even just moving goalposts, you're shifting the topic. We were talking about strawman positions, and how Creationists are fond of attacking a version of Evolution that doesn't exist due to their misunderstanding and outright ignorance of science I thought it was the other way around as defined in post 1.
[qs=nator]
Posts: 12672Registered: 12-09-2001 Message 1 of 219 12-29-2007 10:57 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------So, I have noticed that many of the Creationists on this board have, shall we say, less than stellar writing skills compared to the science-minded folks. Sure, there are a few exceptions, but I would guess that well more than two thirds of the Creationists who have ever posted here simply write very poorly. Their grammar and punctuation ranges from average to downright awful, they frequently fail to break their posts into paragraphs, and their ability to express ideas, sentence structure and word usage doesn't give one an impression of their having done very well in high school English. On a related note, my husband frequents a message board populated by people who work in higher education. Not surprisingly, most posters there write well, and express themselves clearly and often eloquently. Every so often a controversial subject such as Affirmative Action comes up in discussion, and he has noticed that of those people who pop up to write posts condemning it, many of them possess markedly poor writing skills. So, why does everyone think this pattern exists? Edited by Heinrik, : No reason given.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Aren't you both off topic?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
jar writes: Sorry but a strongly held belief that is totally false is a misconception. And how have you reasoned that the strongly held belief is indeed FALSE?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
rahvin writes: Funny how, whenever a Creationist sees the evidence of how ridiculous some of his cohorts can be, the video or quote is always "taken out of context." Funny how you label me a creationist. What made you jump to that conclusion?
Are you saying then that this video was a joke? The Creationists who made it are not actually saying that Evolution says we should find new life in peanut butter jars? I honestly find it hilarious. Why do you evolutionists take it so personal?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
heinrik writes: but it's a really good thing for the economy, for proffits, for shareholders, for cheaper merchandise, having people to do the menial work that more educated would not stoop to do. Lots of positives for many. There are two sides to every coin. rahvin writes: So you approve of virtual slave labor, and view it as a "positive." Glad we disagree on that one. Read it again. Someone suggested to me to be sure I understand the post before I reply. I'm just passing it on to you.
rahvin writes: The topic has drifted just a bit from the original post, as you well know. You and I were talking about strawman arguments in the quote you replied to. Why are you so insistent on not addressing your actual replies? If you feel we've drifted too far from the original topic of the thread, that's fine, but you know full well what you were replying to when you quoted me. You may not understand this, but I have been addressing the discrepancies (in the original post) from start to finish. I never lose sight of the premise. In this thread of 'patterns concerning human beings' I found some of the facts to be true but percieved from superiority and a condescending manner. One misconception I am arguing is that one needs these skills to communicate or express a point of view. If I had said blatantly that this was wrong, I would have got all the arguments and evidence and got nowhere. This did happen anyway.The responses were rock solid. No way could I penetrate that miconception. So I approached it in a different way. A very simple way that all participants could understand. I decided to try to prove this point in black and white. This is what I did. I sent a post completely mispelled and no punctuation, only one person responded. Later I sent exactly the same post but this time it was corrected. This time it sparked a flurry of debate which is absolutely wonderful and continuing still. So you see, my friend, the percieved 'uneducated post' was ignored by the educated. It was written off by the more intelligent crowd. If Dameeva had not picked up on my point, it would have been dead and buried before it begun. The evidence, in black and white is in this thread. It cannot be missed. It clearly shows the onus is on the educated to make the effort to listen and understand those who cannot improve their standards to meet yours. You are asking the impossible of them but it is so possible for you.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
percy writes: Getting back to the topic, the pattern that you're exhibiting here is another very common one with creationists, failure to perform even a cursory investigation. Do you think creationists are also inept in their own chosen field? Edited by Admin, : Fix dBCode.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
modulous writes: More context for the video can be found here. Even more can be found here. Perhaps some kind of 'Creationist Craziness?' type topic could be proposed to discuss whether Creationists are crazy or just have a sense of humour that is not understood by others?I agree it is amusing, but only because it is embedded into a documentary which attempts to present the case against the abiogenetic origins of life - and one would think that in such a context, the best argument would be put forward. Joking around is fine, but spending so much time on japery is expensive and clouds whatever their serious points are and makes them look like clowns rather than people with a serious point. Everything you are saying is making it even funnier. It's because it is meant to be a documentary and meant to be taken seriously and they do. ha ha ha ha I also find it so hilarious because both sides take it so seriously in one way or another.ha ha ha. I don't belong to either side and the hilarity has lifted my spirit! ha ha ha There is no way I can take either of you seriously here. No offense intended. The whole thing is a joke, except for the judging, offense given and recieved, inability to see anothers' reasoning, inability to understand anothers' thinking patterns, inability to communicate on a different level other than their own, inability to see the effects they have on others, insulting phrases and comments and patting each other on the back for a job well done. Give us five! We beat them. We won! Yes, but for all these it would be extrememly hilarious. However to close on a humourous observation, no-one sees themselves.
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