Biblical Translation--Eden

I am looking forward to further examination of the Hebrew Masoretic text regarding the "tree(s)" and the "command(s)" described in the ancient Eden Narrative.We have only scratched the surface.I've got more to say, but an emergence has come up.Ger

kbertsche: You are quite right I get my words twisted together sometimes; I meant "vau consecutive." Thanks for the correction.According to Gesenius' Heb. Grammar, pg.318, Gen. 2:16 falls under the "Use of the Imperfect." "le>mor=in regard to saying" is an "infinitive construct" of the "imperfect tense". It is my understanding that the preformative opening clause, "vayetzav=and he lays charge", would remain in the imperfect tense being so indicated by the infinitive construct "le>mor=in regard to saying".This protion of the "Command" does indeed denote "permission", but it is "permission" in the setting of a "Command." The repetitive verbal clause at the conclusion of Gen. 2:16 expresses intensifying the expression {the Command} to the highest degree.At least that is how I translate Gen. 2:16.I look forward to your thoughts;
Ger

graft2vine: I agree with you completely in regard to this statement: That is exactly what I intended this thread - Biblical Translation-Eden - to accomplish; learn the actual "context" of the Eden Narrative by examining the "Hebrew words" that are actually conveyed in the BHS Masoretic Hebrew Text.If you are most comfortable employing the "Concordant Method" then by all means use it. We can then share with each other what we find and together we may be able to discover what "context" the ancient Eden Narrative is conveying.I look forward to what you discover.
Ger

jaywill: I am so glad that we can agree on something; Prior to any of us learning to read {in this case English}, however, the Holy Bible actually tells us nothing. If we cannot read what God is saying, what God is saying falls on deaf ears. If we are also too young to "know" what "calamity" or "death" actually mean, even if we can read the words we cannot comprehednd what we are reading.Parents {or, a parent} cannot simply rely on what they "tell" their children. Words have little to no meaning without some kind of experience to further emphasize their actual, real-time, meaning. Many, if not most, parents know this when it comes to their children. It is based on this reasoning that such parents go the extra step and "child-proof" their house; matches are kept out of reach of the child, drain cleaner is kept out of reach, electrical sockets are capped, sharp instruments are kept out of reach, and so forth.This brings us back to the "command(s)" issued in Gen. 2:16 & 17. At the time God the "command(s)" it is the "tree" that possesses the knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong/benefit and calamity. The human archetype, "ha>adam", does not possess this knowledge. These "commands" are not so simple that a "toddler" or "child" can grasp what is being said.The only other place in the entire Heb. O.T. where the clause "tob vara0" is used is in Deuteronomy 1:39, and there the clause "to not know tob vara0" denotes "doddlers and children" who do "not know good and evil/right and wrong/benefit and calamity".Therefore, according to the Heb. Eden Narrative it certainly appears as though the human archetype, "ha>adam", would fall into the category of being a child who does not know good and evil, right and wrong, or benefit and calamity. It is the "tree" that possesses this knowledge at the time the "command(s)" are issued.I look forward to your reply.
Ger

jaywill: you state; Where in the Heb. Eden Narrative does the author ever mention "God teaching Adam to speak human language"? I guess God taught "the serpent of the field" to speak human language also. Boy, did God ever make a terrible error in judgement there. If God had not taught the snake to speak human language you and I would have never come into existence. "Adam and Eve" would have remained immortal {or with access to immortality} the garden would have soon become over populated with humans {all that go forth and multiply stuff God said}, and all those humans would have polluted the garden with their refuse {apples, plumbs, oranges, ect.} and God's paradise would have become one big human cesspool. No one would have ever made it to earth, to go forth and multiply, and if they did, their immortality would have soon caused earth to become another festering human cesspool.Even today, with mortality as part of our experience, human beings are over populating planet earth and turning it into a festering human cesspool.Your superstition apparently does not allow you to project context and fact into any part of your interpretation of the biblical creation account(s). If God "blesses the humans" and then tells them to "go forth and multiply and fill the earth {not the garden} and these humans are immortal, or have access to immortality, God is making a very big mistake. That is a fact. Furthermore, "Adam" does not go back "to the ground from which he was taken" until after "The Fall". Perhaps being denied access to "the tree of life" and immortality, was God's way of "blessing" the humans with mortality?In my next post I'll address the simple "command(s)" and we can talk about them as well.Ger

Jaywill:Since you insist on bringing into the discussion the divine aptitude of the New Testament it appears as though the N.T. must be addressed. Believe it or not, we will end up at the Heb. Eden Narrative and the divine “command(s)” since Paul plants the Christian Cross squarely in the middle of the Garden of God {Romans 5:12-14).To begin with, as far as we know your Lord Jesus Christ never wrote down anything himself. His divine secretaries/stenographers Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did all the writing after Jesus had died for “Adam’s” sin and our sins. Then, after these four, we must rely upon Paul, Timothy, Peter, John, Jude, and another John to help us fully grasp what Jesus actually meant {at least what he meant according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (the 4 Gospels).In Roman’s 5:12 Paul writes:
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (KJV).Since everyone on planet earth was in fact mortal {i.e. subject to death} at the time Paul wrote the above passage - and most were not only mortal, but illiterate and superstitious as well - there were few if any who could argue the point he was making. He was claiming that a human-like being, “Adam”, brought mortality and sin into the natural human world. God did not create or make any aspect of natural human life; natural human life was created or made by “Adam” disobeying God’s command. Paul also states that the only way out of the natural human life of death and sin that “Adam” had created was by embracing Jesus Christ as one’s Lord and Savior.To paraphrase: Because you are mortal and you die that is proof that you are a sinner and are rejected by God. The only way - The Only Way - to rectify this loathsome, natural state of being is to take me, Paul, at my word and take Jesus as your Lord and Savior. That is to say, “Become a Christian.” If you don’t, well, then you will die a sinner and will be damned. As Jesus says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16, KJV).The N.T. canon was decided upon at Nicaea in early June of 325 A.D. It was the Nicene Creed, decided upon by the international council of bishops who were convened by Emperor Constantine of Rome that canonized the twenty-seven writings that became the New Testament of the Holy Bible.So, let’s take Paul’s assertion in Roman’s 5:12 and what is written in Mark 16:16, and see how that works for the Holy Roman Empire. Everyone is mortal at the time of the Holy Roman Empire. The Roman Empire wants to conquer the natural, mortal world of man. Now, with the N.T. and Christ on their side - Christ being God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God; begotten, not made - the task of conquering the natural mortal world of man just became a whole lot easier, and easier to justify. The Holy Roman Empire is now doing Christ’s {God’s} divine work. How convenient; because human beings are mortal they are sinners, and unless they take the Roman Empire’s Jesus Christ as their savior they are damned. Well, those who insist on remaining sinners are damned anyway so getting them out of the gene pool is not only doing God’s work, but is working out quite well for the Holy Roman Empire.Is it any wonder that the symbol of the Holy Christians happens to be “the zulon= gallows, the starous=cross, the 0etz=tree of capital punishment.”Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree (KJV).
1st Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree . (KJV)Yes, the “cross/gallows” is called a zulon=tree in Greek, and 0etz=tree in Hebrew. Now let’s look at the command of prohibition in Gen. 2:17;17. ume0etz=but from tree hada0ath=the knowledge tob=moral right vara0=and moral wrong lo>=not tho>kal=you eat/taste/partake mimenu=from a portion of it kiy=for beyom=at the time >akalka=you eat/taste/partake mimenu=from a protion of it moth thamuth=you will die a violent death by human moral judgment.The repetitive verbal clause at the conclusion of Gen. 2:17 is moth thamuth; it is never used to merely denote “natural death.” Never.The repetitive verbal clause moth thamuth in direct relation to the 0etz=tree of knowledge defines the 0etz=tree as being the zulon=gallows, the starous=cross, that is, the tree of capital punishment. This is the symbol of the Holy Roman Empire that is at this very moment continuing to conquer the world of man through the Holy Christian movement. The stones of the Holy Roman Empire may well have crumbled, but the attitudes and aspirations of the Holy Roman Empire have only increased in power and authority.The Christian symbol of the 0etz=cross does not symbolize redemption or salvation. The Christian symbol of the 0etz=cross denotes “moral judgment.” Therefore, “Judge not” has been lost to Christian ears.I look forward to your reply. And, I will reply to your latest post in a short while.Regards;
Ger

jaywill If you recall, or reread, "Eve" is given her "name" after "The Fall." See above. It never even enters your mind that your bible's translation and/or interpretation of the Hebrew Text may be lacking. After 30 years I am surprised that has not occurred to you. That is ancient mythology. In the real universe the earth revolves around the sun and as the earth spins the sun appears and disappears from various aspects of the earth. To stop the sun in the sky would mean to stop the earth from spinning, and that would mean the end of real life on planet earth ... in the real universe. God not man created this reality, the reality that is. I'm not questioning God I'm questioning your English Bible and your interpretation of it. It is your interpretation of Gen. 2:9 & 16. According to you there are "trees good for food" in the garden along with "the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". "Trees good for food" would be fruit-bearing trees; Right? Well, apples, plumbs, and oranges happen to be the fruit of some "trees." According to you in Gen. 2:16 God commands Adam, saying "From every tree {or all trees} of the garden you shall/must eat." And, in Gen. 3:2 the woman tells the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden" (KJV). You figure it out. You are talking about real eatable fruit, aren't you? Adam did not rebell. Adam was tricked; not by Eve, but by the serpent of the field that God taught human speech to. Do the math. Read the English Text. We'll get around to the Hebrew when we get some kind of coherent context established in the English translation.A lot of things do not mesh in the English translation of the Heb. Eden Narrative. God did not leave things out or expect us to understand what cannot be comprehended by our little human brains. Something rather important is being conveyed in the Heb. Eden Narrative, and the English translations are not giving us access to it. I have no problem with God and his wisdom and power. I have a problem with the lacking translations of His Word. See my point?I'll wait before continuing.Regards;
Ger

jaywill: This style of reply does little for either one of us or our respective positions. Come on. I was employing the Christian symbol "the Cross" to make the point that Paul blames all sin and mortality on Adam in the Garden In Eden according to Romans 5:12.Please try to have a coherent conversation with me. I know you are an intelligent person, and being intelligent you should be able to make your point in a clear and concise manner. I am keeping my post as short and to the point as I can, and it would be helpful if you could do the same.If you read my entire post and then reply to what you have read we could have a really wonderful conversation.Regards;
Ger

jaywill: Keeping your writing short and to the point all the time would be really helpful.Yes, death was the enemy of the Canaanite God >el {El} also. This is really nothing new. However, didn't yhwh God create death? He was the creator of "Everything" wasn't he? Or is "death" something that created itself? I'm not clear on this issue. It is yhwh >elohiym in Gen. 2:17 who first brings the death subject up.Regards;
Ger

jaywill: I have a considerable amount of snow to move today, so I will post a few thoughts, and we can continue our discussion later.Tree of lifeWisdom requires no faith. Wisdom requires only discernment, understanding, and knowledge. Wisdom is a practical comprehension of God’s Creation.I suggest, as a respectful acquaintance, that you may want to spend a little more time studying the O.T. book of Proverbs.Pr. 2:5,6,7. 5. Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God. 6. For the Lord giveth wisdom; out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. 7. He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous; he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. (KJV)Pr. 3:13 & 18. 13. Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 18. She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her; and happy is every one that retaineth her. 19. The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. (KJV)Note that the “tree of life” is above described as Wisdom and Understanding that comes directly from God, and that the Lord founded the earth by Wisdom and established the heavens by Understanding. Faith is not mentioned or required.In biblical Hebrew there is no word for “faith” or “belief.” I will elaborate if you request I do so.Pr. 13:16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge; but a fool layeth open his folly. (KJV).Regards;
Ger

jaywill:Correct me if I am wrong. What I hear you saying is that what is written in the O.T. book of Proverbs no longer applies? A practical comprehension of God's Creation is no longer relavent? Faith in the un-real is supposed to be embrased while a common sense understanding of God's Creation is discarded? You are saying that Christ is "the power and wisdom of God." Christ is God. Well then let me quote Provers 3:19 in this fashion:Christ by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath Christ established the heavens.Heb. chakmah=wisdom: knowledge of what is true, discernment, understanding. Heb. biyn=discern: to perceive with the eyes, insight, understanding.These terms have to do with what we perceive with our eyes and what is true.I am relatively certain that your "belief & Faith" trump whatever I could possibly share with you. That is fine.I see little more that I can convey. You appear to be more interested in preaching to poor sinners like me than in exploring the ancient Eden Narrative.Bless you.
Ger

jaywill: You write; Let's look up the English word "real."

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real: true; not merely ostensible [professed, pretended]. Existing or occurring as fact; actual rather than imaginary. Being an actual thin; having objective existence; not imaginary. Being actually such; not merely so-called.

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According to the definitions of "real" above, Chris in not real. The Heb. masculine nouns >omen & >emoon denote "trust." They are derived from the verb root >aman = "to confirm, to support. This is also the verb root of >amen = "truly, actually, factually, really". The feminine noun >amunah = "firmness, steadfastness fidelity". The feminine noun >amenah = "support" and the adverb >amenah = "verily, truly, indeed". The feminine noun >emeth = "firmness, faithfulness, truth".The English word "faith" denotes "belief that is not based on objective reality, supportable facts, or confirmable proof." Your beliefs are not based on "proof". Your "faith/belief" is based on nothing more than words in a book composed by man.When Jesus said, "God is a spirit; and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."The Greek term rendered "truth" is aletheia = of a truth, in reality, in fact, certainty.Here again, "faith & belief" are not mentioned or required.I will reply again at a later time.
Regards
Ger

jaywill:With all due respect; what you have coneyed is "folly." You have nothing to "substantiate". What is your "proof" other than what you read in the Greco-Roman New Testament? The N.T. does not constitute "proof." The N.T. alleges may things, but many if not most of what it alleges cannot be confirmed by empirical fact.For example; you state: Prove it. If Jesus Christ is more real than I am, ask him to do what "real" people do; Interact with those who do not "believe" in him. I am interacting with you and I do not believe in you. You are interacting with me and you do not believe in me.Surely a God who is "real" does not need us to be stuck with a book that we have considerable difficulty understanding. I personally have only been on this little planet for 57 years. I was not present when Jesus/God made his earthly manifestation. Neither were you. Those are a couple empirical facts. So, if indeed "God/Jesus is real" then why not come back in the flesh and help us poor, ignorant, sinners understand the actual "facts".Oh, yes, I am quite certain that is against the rules. But, if Jesus loves the little children so much, why let them grow up into sinful adults whom he will have to damn to hell. That does not make empirical, objective, common sense.Being supposedly "born of a virgin", "walking on water," "raising a four day old rotting corpse from the dead", "raising from the dead himself" do not constitute any state of "empirical reality." There is no proof that the above ever happened. But, there is an incredible amount of objective, empirical, actual reality that proves that such things have never happened on this little planet.An individual does not need to believe in or have fain in gravity, or that water is an important component for life on planet earth, or that air is an improtant component for life on this planet. Gravity, water, air are objective, empirical, actual aspects of Reality. They are aspects of God's reality - God's creation.If you think that you can exist by only inhaling what other men say, then try a little experiment; put a plastic bag over our head and secure it, and then read the New Testament. Let me know how long you can breathe your own breath.Reality is what we breathe, God created it, and it gives us life. Words in any book that do not direct you to God's reality - the reality of empirical life - is in fact nothing more that man's imagination and folly.Regards;
Ger

jaywill:
I apologize for the long-winded response. However, please read this response in its entirety before replying. Thanks.Re: Heb. tense
I wrote, You replied, I hear you saying that I must put myself into a life-long psychotic trance based on, or inspired by, words in a book that was composed by human beings nearly two thousand years ago. And the words in that book, the New Testament, describe events that have absolutely no corroborating, confirming evidence in the real, mortal world that existed before as well as since those mythical, fanciful, unreal events were described. Is that what you are suggesting?Tertullian, a Christian writer (c. 190 A.D.), regarding Christ’s death and resurrection, wrote: “It must be believed, because it is absurd!” (Tertullian, De Carne Christi 5). I personally live amidst the Mystery and Mastery of God and there I enjoy four dimensions: length, height, depth, and breadth. I take pride in nothing, for I have done and said nothing except that which has been given to me. My humanity begins and ends with mortality, but this mortality can only exist within the dimensions of God’s Eternal Life. There is empirical, experiential, corroborating evidence of this: Life was before the heavens and the earth and amidst the heavens and the earth long before I became mortal, and there will be Life in the heavens and the earth long after I cease to be and after the heavens and the earth cease to be; it is there where my life resides. It is not the words on a map that have meaning, for it is the real, experiential territory of God that teams with life and meaning.Do not listen to me. Just listen. One does not experientially commune and fellowship with God in a psychotic trance induced by utterly absurd nonsense espoused by arrogant fools. Paul was such a fool. Follow the parables, proverbs, metaphors and riddles of yhoshu0a=salvation of yhwh {Gk. Jesus} 0imanu>el=with us is God.Did not yhoshu0a {Jesus} say, “A spirit {Gk. Pneuma} is God, and they that worship him, in spirit {Gk. pneumati} and truth {Gk. aletheia} must worship” (John 4:24).Gk. pneuma: a movement of air, breath. The spirit: the vital principle by which the body is animated. A spirit: possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting; the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of anyone.Gk. aletheia: verity, truth. A truth, in reality, in fact, certainly. I again read the first three chapters of 1st Corinthians as you requested. I did notice the words below.

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But a soulish man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know them because they are discerned spiritually. (1 Cor. 2:14)

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Paul’s words above are in direct contradiction of John 4:23 & 24. yhoshu0a {Gk. Jesus} states in John 4:23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeks such to worship him.”en aletheia: in truth, truly, as the case is, according to fact, John 4:23/24.Jesus does not say; Only spiritually in apparent foolishness, now does he? You might notice that the Heb. verb bara>: “to shape, to create,” is also used to denote “birth.” Gen. 1:1 can also be accurately translated; “In the beginning God gave birth to the heavens and the earth.” When understood in this light, the heavens and the earth and all the host of them were and are “born of God.” That makes perfect, logical sense because what else but the Spirit of Eternal Life could give birth to mortal life. The answer is, “Nothing.” According to actual history, the Roman Universal {i.e. Catholic} Church is at the foundation of the Reformation, Protestant movement. No. They were fools fooled by fools. God does not ask anyone to be a fool and die foolishly.

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"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

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As long as you follow Paul’s writings and not the parables, proverbs, metaphors, and riddles of yhoshu0a {Jesus), you and yhoshu0a will never be “one.” I have never questioned the reality of God. yhoshu0a mashiycha {Gk. Jesus Christ} the anointed man-king and prophet of the Jews may well have lived nearly two thousand years ago. The parables, proverbs, metaphors, and riddles attributed to him in the N.T. Gospels and the Gnostic Gospels are indeed profound, wise, intelligent, breathtaking, and charged with reality and truth. However, the Jesus Christ of unreality and nonsense I know for a fact did not ever exist. There is no such thing and never has been a “virgin birth” or “a man who walked on water” or “a man who raised a four day old rotting corpse” or “a man who bodily rose from mortal death.” The scientific formula that demonstrates this fact is the fact that “aletheia=truth, fact, reality, the real and true state of God’s Creation” denounces such assertions as nonsense.Is that clear enough for you? I can elaborate. No one with a mortal brain can “know God.” That is like asking if I know what Life was before the Big Bang, before God gave birth to the heavens and the earth. Do I know that the Eternal Life of God is in me? To that question I can answer an unequivocal; Yes! Do I know that the Eternal Life of God is in you? To that question I can again answer an unequivocal; Yes! Same answer as above. I experience God always. Every day I am born anew and regenerated by God. And, with each day that passes my memories are filled with what God has taught me of the Awesome Reality God has shared with me. I take pride in nothing I have done or said for I have done and said nothing that God has not provided. My mortality is subject to God, and all I can do is humble myself to that Awesome Reality.The Holy Roman New Testament was canonized at Nicaea in 325 A.D. The N.T. is a passive-aggressive composition of contradiction and nonsense. Only the parables, proverbs, metaphors, and riddles ascribed to yhoshu0a have any worth.When the N.T. ascribes to Jesus-- “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world” (John 12:47), as well as “Now is the judgment of this world . ” (John 12:31), and also “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16)”one must acknowledge that someone is messing with your mind. There is something wrong with this kind of contradiction.Do not listen to me. Listen! There is no such thing as “a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” Such “hope” is based on “fiction, myth, fantasy, legend.” Such false-hope is based on a flawed, man-made map of God’s Real Territory.Regards;
Ger

Otto Tellick:Your insights and input are eloquent and appreciated. Your four categories outlining the bases for holding a given belief {as you define it} are clear and concise, in my opinion. At this point in time I cannot think of any changes or additions.I would greatly appreciate your opinion regarding my last post to jaywill. However, it might be best to allow jaywill to reply first, for I treasure his insights and opinions also, and would rather not distract jaywill from any response he may wish to share.I look forward to your comments.
Ger