Biblical Translation--Eden

The tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil (which is actually the tree of death) is in opposition to life (Gen. 2:9). So death came first, then there was the sting of death, which is sin (Rom. 5:12). So first there is death and then there is sin that introduces, or results in death. So if death is the result of sin, wouldn’t that make death "greater" than sin? The last enemy of God thrown into the lake of fire is death (Rev. 20:14).I'd say there is a pretty good case for God hating death more than sin and even saying that death is actually the real, or true, enemy of God.

I am going to shorten my answers today. I have a number of Englsh translations.While I think of it, I have been long time aware that the Greek word translated tree in some places in the NT can be rendered wood. For example "the tree of life" in Revelation 2 could be rendered "wood of life". I have also long been aware that in one of Peter's Epistles you have a similar effect, - carried our sins up onto the tree (or wood) meaning cross.The footnotes to the Recovery Version are very good.The Holy Bible Recovery Version I think I said I didn't know how God accomplished this. Whether rotations were stopped or God tampered with the time / space apparatus, we don't know.Incedently, I know of at least one argument that the account actually demonstrates a helio centric solar system. That argument exactly negates your charge. I cannot review the technicalities of it. But it was put forth that the behavior of the moon in that instance suggests a helio centric solar system.Regardless, for the one who "in the beginning created the heavens and the earth" it was possible. We can believe it or we can not believe it. I believe it.Latter on He did something similiar with the sun dial whose shadow moved backwards instead of forwards in the time of Hezekiah.It is interesting that many of the miracles of the Bible occur in pairs of twos. He does something. Then latter He does something similiar or the same. It is as if the Bible is saying "That's right. You heard what I said." Very interesting to me.Biblical miracles in pairs of twos is like God saying: "Just in case you didn't get it, I'll do it again." The whole universe is fine tuned for the existence of life. I don't think God needs to sit at our feet and be tutored on the operation of the universe.Modern man with his knowledge is so very arrogant. How God did it, we do not know. But you can believe or reject that he did it. I believe. Let's move on. It was some kind of eatable fruit.I mentioned before in the example of the ark of the covenant. Sometimes material things had profound spiritual implications with them as to how God's people interacted with them.At least with the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, there was an extraordinary spiritual quality associated with Adam's involvment with these fruits.What kinds of fruit they were I have no idea. Neither do I care. He may have been deceived. But the Scripture holds him responsible for direct rebellion. Isn't that what the Bible says? Now you have a little more ground to say that Eve was deceived. Look though at God's sentence against Adam. Sounds like pure rebellion to me: Sounds like a case of direct rebellion.You may have some language tools available to you which I don't have. However you should not let the possession of them obscure the clear meaning of the text.Perhaps, someone whose interpretation is faulty is not a good influence on your reading of Genesis. What Math? Here is one thing I think you do not realize.The tree of life means more than simply an endless human life. I think they already had an endless human life. There was no warning to them that failure to eat of the tree of life would result in their deaths.As far as we can see the only thing which would cause them to die was their eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I believe that Adam and Eve were created with an everlasting life.If they had an everlasting life then the tree of life (which also would cause them to live forever) must represent something more than simply an everlasting human life.The levels of created life rise higher and higher in the narrative, until God reaches man - created in the image of God. Man is at the top of the ladder. Above this is the tree of life. What is this?From the revelation of the whole Bible I understand that the tree of life represented the life of God Himself. God has a way to put His life into man's life. God has a way to dispense His life into Man's created being. God has a way to unite Himself with His creature man.The Apostle Paul says that fallen man was alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18). From the time God placed the cheribum and the flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life, man was alienated from "THE LIFE OF GOD".This account is a window into the eternal purpose of God. God wants to impart Himself as divine life into man. Within the man created in God's image God would dispense "the life of God".Think of a glove made in the image of a hand. The glove is in the shape of a hand for the purpose of containing the hand. The hand fits quite comfortably inside the glove because the glove is in the image of a hand.This is more than physical. Man is made in the image of God so that God can dispense His life into man that man and God may be united and mingled into one.Remember, Paul writes that fallen man was "alienated from the life of God."The tree of life represented the life which is God Himself. It was for the taking in of man. God created man in order to dispense Himself into man for man's enjoyment and God's expression.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill: I have a considerable amount of snow to move today, so I will post a few thoughts, and we can continue our discussion later.Tree of lifeWisdom requires no faith. Wisdom requires only discernment, understanding, and knowledge. Wisdom is a practical comprehension of God’s Creation.I suggest, as a respectful acquaintance, that you may want to spend a little more time studying the O.T. book of Proverbs.Pr. 2:5,6,7. 5. Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God. 6. For the Lord giveth wisdom; out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. 7. He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous; he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. (KJV)Pr. 3:13 & 18. 13. Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 18. She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her; and happy is every one that retaineth her. 19. The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. (KJV)Note that the “tree of life” is above described as Wisdom and Understanding that comes directly from God, and that the Lord founded the earth by Wisdom and established the heavens by Understanding. Faith is not mentioned or required.In biblical Hebrew there is no word for “faith” or “belief.” I will elaborate if you request I do so.Pr. 13:16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge; but a fool layeth open his folly. (KJV).Regards;
Ger

Thanks alot. I enjoy any excuse to have to go back and devour again the word of God in a book of the Bible. And Proverbs is a fine book.I would like to suggest that you read the First Epistle to the Corinthians at least up to chapter three.Of course I have studied the books of Proverbs but I will go into it again as you requested.I think we are not talking about the tree of life. I have long been aware that "a tree of life" is mentioned in Proverbs.At this time I would only point out that in the new covenant the wisdom to the saved people is Christ Himself. Christ the living Person becomes the wisdom to the saved man. You see here the apostle teaches that Christ, the resurrected and living Lord is both the power of God and the wisdom of God. He is so especially to both Jews and Greeks who are called unto salvation.Paul speaks much about wisdom in that letter. Again Paul mentions Christ Himself is wisdom to the saved believers: Christ makes His home in our hearts through faith: And coming to live in us, to settle down in us, and to make His home in our hearts, He becomes our living wisdom from God. This wisdom here is of three components - "righteousness and sanctification and redemption".Christ = wisdom = (righteousness and sanctification and redemption)The footnote of the Recovery Version says this for verse 30: Today all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill:Correct me if I am wrong. What I hear you saying is that what is written in the O.T. book of Proverbs no longer applies? A practical comprehension of God's Creation is no longer relavent? Faith in the un-real is supposed to be embrased while a common sense understanding of God's Creation is discarded? You are saying that Christ is "the power and wisdom of God." Christ is God. Well then let me quote Provers 3:19 in this fashion:Christ by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath Christ established the heavens.Heb. chakmah=wisdom: knowledge of what is true, discernment, understanding. Heb. biyn=discern: to perceive with the eyes, insight, understanding.These terms have to do with what we perceive with our eyes and what is true.I am relatively certain that your "belief & Faith" trump whatever I could possibly share with you. That is fine.I see little more that I can convey. You appear to be more interested in preaching to poor sinners like me than in exploring the ancient Eden Narrative.Bless you.
Ger

If I think you're wrong, I'll try. Absolutely not. I am not saying that. No I am not saying that either. This "question" carries an implication with it. I don't think it is as good as your first question. This is a question with an assertion in it that Christ is not real. Well, this is not too much unlike what the Gospel of John says you know? The Apostle John does write that creation was brought into being through the Word which was both with God and was God Himself. Latter down in verse 14 John writes: This Divine One through Whom creation came into being clothed Himself in flesh and tabernacled among us created human beings. He did this so that all that He is as wisdom might become imparted into us as life. For John also writes - Proverbs is probably speaking of the Logos before His incarnation. I didn't mean to dimenish the importance of the book of Proverbs. I was just jumping ahead to show that this wisdom is a living Person who can be imparted into man as the divine life - "In Him was life ..."I am always eager to show the big picture of God's economy. I do not mean to imply there are not gems of wisdom in Proverbs about evaluating the meaning of creation. I think that you will find difficulty if you try to purport that Proverbs is somehow "anti-faith", "anti-trust in God", or "anti-belief."Before you get in trouble I think your will not be able to establish that all things relating to "faith, trust, belief" are foriegn to the book of Proverbs.For exampple is not faith and trust implied in these Proverbs: You see? In the midst of these exhortation to obtain wisdom and understanding you DO have a word that we should trust Jehovah and not lean on our own understanding. Trust is another aspect of faith.I don't mean to thrust upon you something you have not experienced in a pre-mature way. I am just eager to point again to the centrality of Christ in the whole Bible.Here is another Proverb which emphasizes trusting in God in the way of faith: Waiting on God, leaving your vindication up to Him rather than taking it into your own hands, requires faith in God. You have to have faith in His FAITHFULNESS.Do not try to make wisdom and knowledge so superior and faith a poor beggarly matter. On the other side of faith is Divine FAITHFULNESS. "And he [Abraham] BELIEVED Jehovah, and it was accounted to him as rigtheousness. (Gen.15:6)" The opposite of trusting in our own heart is to walk wisely. And to walk wisely must therefore be trusting in God. That too requires faith. So the book of Proverbs is not anti-faith at all. Maybe you're too touchy. This is a forum on "What the Bible really means."In discussing early Genesis I like to elaborate on what I believe the account really means in light of God's eternal purpose. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hi autumnman, Then I guess emuwn is not a Hebrew word. The scripture you quoted said "a" tree of life not the tree of life. That makes a lot of difference.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

jaywill: You write; Let's look up the English word "real."

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real: true; not merely ostensible [professed, pretended]. Existing or occurring as fact; actual rather than imaginary. Being an actual thin; having objective existence; not imaginary. Being actually such; not merely so-called.

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According to the definitions of "real" above, Chris in not real. The Heb. masculine nouns >omen & >emoon denote "trust." They are derived from the verb root >aman = "to confirm, to support. This is also the verb root of >amen = "truly, actually, factually, really". The feminine noun >amunah = "firmness, steadfastness fidelity". The feminine noun >amenah = "support" and the adverb >amenah = "verily, truly, indeed". The feminine noun >emeth = "firmness, faithfulness, truth".The English word "faith" denotes "belief that is not based on objective reality, supportable facts, or confirmable proof." Your beliefs are not based on "proof". Your "faith/belief" is based on nothing more than words in a book composed by man.When Jesus said, "God is a spirit; and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."The Greek term rendered "truth" is aletheia = of a truth, in reality, in fact, certainty.Here again, "faith & belief" are not mentioned or required.I will reply again at a later time.
Regards
Ger

I have nothing against the English dictionary. But we need to consult the divine oracles of God - the New Testament for a better deefinition of faith. The biblical definition of faith is that it is the SUBSTANTIATION or the SUBSTANTIATING of the things hoped for.The very definition implies that what is hoped for exists and faith is the means to verify, touch, and subjectively substantiate the existence of that thing.As for Christ not being real. Christ is more real than you are. He died and rose from the dead. So He could not be destroyed by death.He may not be real to you because you may not have the Spirit of reality or the Spirit of truth who He gave to those who received Him.John in writing his gospel was careful to record the hard questions that the disciples put to Jesus before His death and resurrection. One of those questions was how would He manifest Himself to His disciples yet not to the world at large. The answer was that Christ in His pneumatic form and Another Comforter, as the Spirit of reality would come and make an abode within the disciples human spirit. Jesus Christ promised to send the "Another Comforter" to the diciples to be with them forever. This "Another Comforter" is just the First Comforter Jesus, in another form. He is in a form in which He can live within us.He lives within His believers as the Another Comforter Who is the Spirit of reality. The world of unbelievers does not know Him or behold Him. That is until someone of the world receives this Comforter, this Spirit into their being.Verse 18 proves that the coming of the Spirit of reality - Another Comforter is the coming of Jesus Himself to the disciples -"I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."Therefore the indwelling of the Spirit of reality is the coming of Christ to His disciples in His pneumatic form. With this Paul concurs writing "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" ( cor. 15:45)Looking again at John 14:17 it is important to see that the Jesus who was WITH the disciples before death and resurrection would be the Jesus Who would be IN the diciples after resurrection:"Even the Spirit of reality ... you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you."Jesus abode with the 12 disciples physically for three and one half years. He is now promising that He would be within the disciples as the Spirit of reality - "you know Him, becausee He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."So the coming into the disciples of the life giving Spirit - the Another Comforter Who is the Spirit of reality is the coming of the living Person of Jesus in another form to be in the disciples.Here again in the same chapter Jesus tells of He and His Father coming to make an abode with the believers: The Triune God - the Father and the Son as the Spirit of reality will come to the lover of Jesus and make an abode with the lover of Jesus.Entering these realm is entering into a new humanity. It is putting on the new man. And Paul speaks of it in these terms: Putting on the new man is putting on the man mingled with Christ. It is entering into the realm of being a man united with Christ and enjoying the holiness of the reality.Without the resurrected Christ the human life is truly vanity. There is a lack of the essential truth and reality of God. No one can know God apart from the Son of God. One may know ABOUT God. But no one can know God Himself apart from the Son of God."Jesus said to him, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)He did not say that no ones comes to the Father except through the religion of Christianity, necessarily. He did said that no one comes to the Father except through Him - a living Person.For sure, if ANYONE in all history in any place in the world, comes to know God it is only because of Jesus Christ, whether they are aware of it or not. Because no one, but no one, comes to the Father except through Him - Jesus Christ.So on this subject the Bible itself is superior and transcends what your English dictionary has to say about it.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill:With all due respect; what you have coneyed is "folly." You have nothing to "substantiate". What is your "proof" other than what you read in the Greco-Roman New Testament? The N.T. does not constitute "proof." The N.T. alleges may things, but many if not most of what it alleges cannot be confirmed by empirical fact.For example; you state: Prove it. If Jesus Christ is more real than I am, ask him to do what "real" people do; Interact with those who do not "believe" in him. I am interacting with you and I do not believe in you. You are interacting with me and you do not believe in me.Surely a God who is "real" does not need us to be stuck with a book that we have considerable difficulty understanding. I personally have only been on this little planet for 57 years. I was not present when Jesus/God made his earthly manifestation. Neither were you. Those are a couple empirical facts. So, if indeed "God/Jesus is real" then why not come back in the flesh and help us poor, ignorant, sinners understand the actual "facts".Oh, yes, I am quite certain that is against the rules. But, if Jesus loves the little children so much, why let them grow up into sinful adults whom he will have to damn to hell. That does not make empirical, objective, common sense.Being supposedly "born of a virgin", "walking on water," "raising a four day old rotting corpse from the dead", "raising from the dead himself" do not constitute any state of "empirical reality." There is no proof that the above ever happened. But, there is an incredible amount of objective, empirical, actual reality that proves that such things have never happened on this little planet.An individual does not need to believe in or have fain in gravity, or that water is an important component for life on planet earth, or that air is an improtant component for life on this planet. Gravity, water, air are objective, empirical, actual aspects of Reality. They are aspects of God's reality - God's creation.If you think that you can exist by only inhaling what other men say, then try a little experiment; put a plastic bag over our head and secure it, and then read the New Testament. Let me know how long you can breathe your own breath.Reality is what we breathe, God created it, and it gives us life. Words in any book that do not direct you to God's reality - the reality of empirical life - is in fact nothing more that man's imagination and folly.Regards;
Ger

Before I was regenerated in my spirit Christ also was not real to me. I suspect you have not had your spirit enlivened from its comatose state. You must be born again.Without being born again there is a whole dimension of life which is missing to you. You are a three dimensional being living in a two dimensional world.Being born of the Spirit enlivens the comatose human spirit and you can touch God and experiencially commune and fellowship with God.Did you read 1 Corinthians as I suggested? I read much of Proverbs as you suggested.If you did not you might notice these words of the new testmane apostle: A soulish man is a man dominated by his natural soul. His human spirit is comatose, deadened. Or he is so dominated by his mind, emotion, and will that his praying organ cannot come alive to fellowship with the Spirit of God.You must be born of God.One thing is certain. To so many who did touch Christ in their innermost being, they were given such assurance of the things that they experienced that all the persecution of the Roman Empire and the persecution of Catholicism could not put them down.They went to the flames and the lions singing praises to God. It is because they know Christ within them was real."He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)If you have a mathematical or scientific formula which demonstrates beyond any question the unreality of God and of Christ just post it up for us to see.But if not, just ask yourself if you know God or not.I don't mean do you know some information about God. I mean do you know God. I know God. I need to know God deeper. But I would be a liar if I said that I did not know God.If you feel that you do not know God subjectively and experiencially then you just may open a little to what the New Testament is teaching about the experience of being born again, born of God - regenerated.We believers have been regenerated unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

jaywill:
I apologize for the long-winded response. However, please read this response in its entirety before replying. Thanks.Re: Heb. tense
I wrote, You replied, I hear you saying that I must put myself into a life-long psychotic trance based on, or inspired by, words in a book that was composed by human beings nearly two thousand years ago. And the words in that book, the New Testament, describe events that have absolutely no corroborating, confirming evidence in the real, mortal world that existed before as well as since those mythical, fanciful, unreal events were described. Is that what you are suggesting?Tertullian, a Christian writer (c. 190 A.D.), regarding Christ’s death and resurrection, wrote: “It must be believed, because it is absurd!” (Tertullian, De Carne Christi 5). I personally live amidst the Mystery and Mastery of God and there I enjoy four dimensions: length, height, depth, and breadth. I take pride in nothing, for I have done and said nothing except that which has been given to me. My humanity begins and ends with mortality, but this mortality can only exist within the dimensions of God’s Eternal Life. There is empirical, experiential, corroborating evidence of this: Life was before the heavens and the earth and amidst the heavens and the earth long before I became mortal, and there will be Life in the heavens and the earth long after I cease to be and after the heavens and the earth cease to be; it is there where my life resides. It is not the words on a map that have meaning, for it is the real, experiential territory of God that teams with life and meaning.Do not listen to me. Just listen. One does not experientially commune and fellowship with God in a psychotic trance induced by utterly absurd nonsense espoused by arrogant fools. Paul was such a fool. Follow the parables, proverbs, metaphors and riddles of yhoshu0a=salvation of yhwh {Gk. Jesus} 0imanu>el=with us is God.Did not yhoshu0a {Jesus} say, “A spirit {Gk. Pneuma} is God, and they that worship him, in spirit {Gk. pneumati} and truth {Gk. aletheia} must worship” (John 4:24).Gk. pneuma: a movement of air, breath. The spirit: the vital principle by which the body is animated. A spirit: possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting; the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of anyone.Gk. aletheia: verity, truth. A truth, in reality, in fact, certainly. I again read the first three chapters of 1st Corinthians as you requested. I did notice the words below.

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But a soulish man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know them because they are discerned spiritually. (1 Cor. 2:14)

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Paul’s words above are in direct contradiction of John 4:23 & 24. yhoshu0a {Gk. Jesus} states in John 4:23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeks such to worship him.”en aletheia: in truth, truly, as the case is, according to fact, John 4:23/24.Jesus does not say; Only spiritually in apparent foolishness, now does he? You might notice that the Heb. verb bara>: “to shape, to create,” is also used to denote “birth.” Gen. 1:1 can also be accurately translated; “In the beginning God gave birth to the heavens and the earth.” When understood in this light, the heavens and the earth and all the host of them were and are “born of God.” That makes perfect, logical sense because what else but the Spirit of Eternal Life could give birth to mortal life. The answer is, “Nothing.” According to actual history, the Roman Universal {i.e. Catholic} Church is at the foundation of the Reformation, Protestant movement. No. They were fools fooled by fools. God does not ask anyone to be a fool and die foolishly.

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"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

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As long as you follow Paul’s writings and not the parables, proverbs, metaphors, and riddles of yhoshu0a {Jesus), you and yhoshu0a will never be “one.” I have never questioned the reality of God. yhoshu0a mashiycha {Gk. Jesus Christ} the anointed man-king and prophet of the Jews may well have lived nearly two thousand years ago. The parables, proverbs, metaphors, and riddles attributed to him in the N.T. Gospels and the Gnostic Gospels are indeed profound, wise, intelligent, breathtaking, and charged with reality and truth. However, the Jesus Christ of unreality and nonsense I know for a fact did not ever exist. There is no such thing and never has been a “virgin birth” or “a man who walked on water” or “a man who raised a four day old rotting corpse” or “a man who bodily rose from mortal death.” The scientific formula that demonstrates this fact is the fact that “aletheia=truth, fact, reality, the real and true state of God’s Creation” denounces such assertions as nonsense.Is that clear enough for you? I can elaborate. No one with a mortal brain can “know God.” That is like asking if I know what Life was before the Big Bang, before God gave birth to the heavens and the earth. Do I know that the Eternal Life of God is in me? To that question I can answer an unequivocal; Yes! Do I know that the Eternal Life of God is in you? To that question I can again answer an unequivocal; Yes! Same answer as above. I experience God always. Every day I am born anew and regenerated by God. And, with each day that passes my memories are filled with what God has taught me of the Awesome Reality God has shared with me. I take pride in nothing I have done or said for I have done and said nothing that God has not provided. My mortality is subject to God, and all I can do is humble myself to that Awesome Reality.The Holy Roman New Testament was canonized at Nicaea in 325 A.D. The N.T. is a passive-aggressive composition of contradiction and nonsense. Only the parables, proverbs, metaphors, and riddles ascribed to yhoshu0a have any worth.When the N.T. ascribes to Jesus-- “And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world” (John 12:47), as well as “Now is the judgment of this world . ” (John 12:31), and also “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16)”one must acknowledge that someone is messing with your mind. There is something wrong with this kind of contradiction.Do not listen to me. Listen! There is no such thing as “a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” Such “hope” is based on “fiction, myth, fantasy, legend.” Such false-hope is based on a flawed, man-made map of God’s Real Territory.Regards;
Ger

Well, jaywill and autumnman have been going on now (back, forth and sideways) at great length, and have expanded the topic of this thread to great breadth. However, speaking as an outsider to both of their respective points of view, I can honestly say that their discussion seems to be hitting continuously and repeatedly on the issue that is at the core of the EvC Forum: what is the basis for belief, and if there is a need to reconcile divergent beliefs, on what basis can this be done?("Belief" here is meant to encompass our ideas about how we should "understand" ourselves, other people, life, the world, the universe, and everything in between; it covers all the stuff going through our minds that is not the direct result of sharable, replicable observation or physical sensation resulting from external, verifiable phenomena.)I would propose the following as the possible bases for holding a given belief (I'd be interested if others would propose changes or additions to this list):

1. Statements, descriptions and (historical or allegorical) accounts made in specific books (e.g. "the Bible says...", or "My textbook's description of the periodic table of elements says...")
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2. Profoundly personal, subjective, internal experiences (e.g. "I have felt the presence of God/Jesus/{other spiritual entity} in my life...", or "I can feel the energy that binds all living things..." or "Understanding these equations and how they describe what I've seen, I feel an overwhelming sense of awe-of/oneness-with/{other emotional state about} nature that I cannot express in mathematical terms...")
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3. Extrapolations or extensions drawn from what is written in specific books, to supply details that were not written there, based on our current sense of what is "logical" or "consistent" -- that is, "reading between the lines" (e.g. "the Bible /my textbook doesn't explicitly say anything about {pick a detail... let's call it X}, but based on what it does say about things relating to X, here is what I believe about it...")
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4. Extrapolations from external or internal experience, to consider things we have not yet experienced, and to organize our expectations about what sorts of things we are likely or unlikely to encounter in the future (e.g. "I believe that arguing with so-and-so about this-or-that will not do anyone any good..." )
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The last two items are generally malleable and flexible -- most people can recognize which of their beliefs are based on extrapolation, and can amend their ideas as new knowledge or a different understanding becomes available. (Well, some people are less willing or able than others in this regard, of course.)Regarding item 1, we have a serious problem when the book in question was originally written thousands of years ago, in a language that is not actively spoken by any living population, about so many things that are beyond or totally outside our current ability to verify independently. The people whose hands first gave physical form to the words of the Bible are long dead; determining their communicative intent (whether or not you consider it to be "their own" or "God's") becomes a tricky matter of linguistic inferences about how the lexicon, syntax and semantics of that language relate to those of any currently living language, which in turn may be based on second-, third-, nth-hand information about meanings and interpretations; ultimately, our understanding of the text requires some speculation (which almost gets us back to the original topic of this thread!)Obviously, none of this is an issue for a textbook describing the periodic table of elements. The content is independently verifiable, and can be understood with consistent precision by all who learn the mathematics and observational techniques involved.Turning to item 2 above, which people often call a (or the) "religious experience", this may be the most significant and powerful basis for personal belief. If I have correctly understood some of the things jaywill has said here, it may be an indispensable prerequisite for holding a belief that is consistent with the one he holds. The problem is that this basis is intrinsically subjective. If people "share" it, it is because they agree to believe that each individual has internally felt "the same thing" that other individuals have felt internally, without any overt, observable evidence for the commonality of their respective experiences. (I would expect that some people would profess to have had such an experience, and would assert that theirs is "the same thing" that others have experienced, without ever quite understanding what sort of thing they're talking about -- what they're actually doing is establishing and maintaining membership in a close-knit group, for whatever reason.)A lot of people have not had such experiences, and therefore have no basis for sharing a belief of this sort -- such people could readily view such "experiences" as imaginary, self-deluding or even hallucinatory. In any case, to say that we "must" have such an experience is not a convincing argument.The length and breadth of the current thread is ample evidence of how differences in belief -- stemming from differences in biblical interpretation or "revelatory experience" -- can become intractable when the parties involved have no other basis for their respective positions. I would even tend to say it is a variant on solipsism (one of my favorite words these days), in the sense that it is an argument between parties for whom personal belief determines reality rather than the other way around.I sincerely hope that no one (esp. autumnman and jaywill) will take my remarks as demeaning or insulting -- that certainly is not my intention, because I have found many of their posts here to be genuinely informative and/or interesting. My intention, in the (presumed) spirit of the EvC Forum, is to contribute an alternative point of view.Edited by Otto Tellick, : (minor grammar repair)

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autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

Otto Tellick:Your insights and input are eloquent and appreciated. Your four categories outlining the bases for holding a given belief {as you define it} are clear and concise, in my opinion. At this point in time I cannot think of any changes or additions.I would greatly appreciate your opinion regarding my last post to jaywill. However, it might be best to allow jaywill to reply first, for I treasure his insights and opinions also, and would rather not distract jaywill from any response he may wish to share.I look forward to your comments.
Ger

Goosimeburo, Good to see you on the board again.I agree. The two trees stand in direct opposition to one another. Adam is neutral between the two. He cannot have both and the two are mutally exclusive.This makes is even tougher to imagine that both fruits were on one tree. Once he partook of the tree of death God placed an impassable barrier for between Adaam and Eve and the tree of life:And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever - Therefore Jehovah God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to work the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out, and at the east of the garden of Eden He placed the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. " (Gen. 3:22a)Did you notice that here in the beginning of the Bible you have a obstacle to obtaining the tree of life facing every direction as a barrier. But at the end of the Bible you have the tree of life in the city with gates opened to the four directions?"... and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God (Rev. 21:10) ... On the east three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates (v.13) ...And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life (Rev. 22:2a)The garden has become a city. The barrier facing every direction is changed into 12 gates - three in each of the four directions - universally accessibilty to the saved in eternity. I have never quite thought of it in those terms. But it makes a lot of sense. But it would explain why some humans die though they did not live long enough to commit a sin. I am sure that death is the last enemy for First Corinthians says "Death, the last enemy is being abolished" (1 Cor. 15:26)The divine life that swallows death is the Lord Jesus Himself who has become a life giving Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)I like the usage of the word "swallow" by Paul. On one hand he writes "Death is swallowed up in victory" in verse 54 when " ... this mortal [must] put on immortality." But on the other hand in Second Corinthians he says that "that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life" (2 Cor. 5:4)Both within Christ becomes to the believer "a life giving Spirit" dispensing divine life into our inner being. And then without we are swallowed up in the same divine and eternal life.Surely this is the effect of God's life, within and without, being imparted into as well as swallowing up without the entire being of the redeemed saved.Satanification is reversed and Deification takes place to the entire human. It stands to reason that if the eternal God had and enemy, he had to become the absolute opposite of everything God is. God is the source of the divine and uncreated life. Satan had to become the author of death. God is truth. Satan had to become the lie. God is light. Satan had to become the darkness.The enemy of God had to become the opposite of everything God is.The tree of life stood for God. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil stood for Satan. How could they possibly be the same tree? That would be like saying Satan and God were one being.However, it is interesting that both good and evil were on the same tree of death. And it is interesting further that the knowledge of good and evil was something that God had - "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil"The subtlety of the serpents attack is seen. It was not a tree of gambling. It was not the tree of murder. It was not the tree of stealing. It seemed so noble. It was even a tree of something possessed by God - the knowledge of good and evil.I think it was an attempt to make man be independent from God and autonomously separate from God - to kind of "go it alone" without God.I notice that when Adam is asked about his new state of nakedness, God says to him "Who told you ...?" In other words what God had allowed to be Okay and innocent was not a source of accusation against the human conscience -"And he [Adam] said, I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I am naked; so I hid myself.

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And He said, Who told you that you are naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat? (Gen. 3:10,11)We know that Satan accuses man before God and accuses man in his conscience. He is [b]"the accuser of the brothers" (Rev.12:10) - " ... for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before God day and night."Doesn't it seem as if Adam has stepped out from under God's authority and in an attempt to be independent from God has unwittingly placed himself under the authority of God's accusing enemy?Anyway thanks for you explanation about death and the sting of death. Something here is difficult for me to understand completely.
And I need some time to think on it and perhaps look into some other passages. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.