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Author Topic:   Biblical Translation—Eden, 4
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 226 of 306 (469889)
06-08-2008 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by autumnman
06-07-2008 4:17 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
AM writes
Of course the scriptures are a reliable source for belief and faith. I have never meant to get into a discussion or debate regarding the scriptures being a reliable source for belief and faith. Perhaps that is why my responses do not appear to address most if not all of the arguments you are presenting in your previous posts.
It has always been interesting to see how and why people believe that the words, Belief, Faith and Knowledge are "mutually exclusive", they are not. When I say the scriptures are a source for belief and faith I do not mean to imply they do not involve verifiable facts, they do. Even the simplest approach and understanding would reveal this "fact", no pun intended. Faith and belief can be supported or unsupported, both with things about life and "religion".
People can have belief and/or faith in anything they wish, in my opinion. I, however, do not think that moral codes of human behavior should be based on any particular “belief and/or faith.” A particular Faith and/or Belief then begins to infringe upon those who may not agree with that particular Faith and/or Belief. The Holy Bible is not the only religious book on the planet, nor is the Holy Bible the only piece of literature containing moral codes of conduct. What was regarded as “moral” two, three, four or more thousand years ago is not necessarily regarded as “moral” today in the U.S.A. Even in the U.S.A. a couple hundred years ago it was once regarded as moral to have slaves. That is not the case any more.
"Moral codes of Behavior" as you call it should be accepted or rejected by thier supporting evidence,not what someone believes or disbelives about it. It should be the case that the scriptures and its moral code are either demonstratable as Gods word or not.
Anyone who feels so inclined can believe that the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of his or her God. Just because someone is inclined to believe that the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of the Judeo-Christian God that does not actually make the Holy Bible the inspired word of any god. The Scriptures are a reliable source for belief and faith. However, the Scriptures as a whole are not a reliable source for historical facts, medical facts, scientific facts, or any other kind of facts. Facts are facts and religion is religion. Religious faith and/or belief do not require fact. Facts, on the other hand, require actual existence”reality, the real and true state of things, natural phenomena, test results that can be reproduced, and so on, and so forth.
Your baseless contention that the scriptures "as a whole are not a reliable source for historical fact", is simply incorrect as has been demonstrated through the course of this debate. Not only are they reliable as such, most if not all of the evidence that is excavated by archaeologists and historians corroborates the "facts" in the Bible and never seen to discredited it. This is a phenomenonhat cannot be ignored. It is to me one of the "proofs" ofits divine origin.
Since you have still not yet produced and ancient text that can boast this type of accuracy, I will consisder you statement as unsupported and incorrect. There is simply to much supporting evidence of the scriptures accuracy, historical corroboration and scientific verification. This my friend is reality.
religous faith does require fact and it has it to support it.
As long as the Scriptures remain a source for belief and faith, and no one tries to claim they represent more than a source of an individual’s religious belief and faith, there is no reason to debate the authorship or linguistic style or the content of the Hebrew Tanakh or the English Holy Bible. It is when someone claims that the Scriptures espouse the highest degree of “Truth” that the debate begins. That kind of “Truth” must be proven beyond any doubt. That kind of “Truth” is held to a much high standard than even the truth that is sought in a U.S.A. court of law. If someone says that the scriptures convey God’s unequivocal Truth and that every human being on planet earth must abide by God’s unequivocal Truth: I say, “Prove it.”
This is an interesting statement here, it seems to ignore the fact that this is exacally what we have been discussing. I am contending and have been establishing my case that the scriptures DO establish the highest standard of morality. The scriptrues and thier content do establish themselves beyond any reasonable doubt as divine in nature and character. The "proof" you need has already been presented to you. The mere fact that you can ignore said truth, is not an indication that it does not exist.
We have not been discussing two seperate issues. To discuss the existence of God, the Eden narrative, or any other religous, philosophical issue, these issues will naturally fall into place as a part of the discussion. I am contending that Faith, Belief and Knowledge can be so intertwined that at times they are indistinguisable. Sometimes however, they are distinctively different, but not always.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by autumnman, posted 06-07-2008 4:17 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by autumnman, posted 06-08-2008 11:26 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 229 by autumnman, posted 06-08-2008 1:06 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 228 of 306 (469902)
06-08-2008 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by autumnman
06-08-2008 11:26 AM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
Theodore Drange writes:"One explanation for such neglect is that the argument can be easily refuted. In this essay/outline, I shall try to sketch how such a refutation might be formulated, though I am sure many will feel that I am attacking a strawman. (I believe there are millions of such "strawpeople" out there!)"Theodore M Drange".
"How a refutation "might" be formulated"., Hmmmmm?
AM, Mr Drange really needs to get out more. All of these alleged contradictions have been answered 1000 times over. I will provide you with sites that respond to these so-called inconsistencies.
Furthermore did you notice how not a single example was offered from an archaeological standpoint to show how that the Bible is incorrect in its content and claims. All that is left is a misunderstanding of passages and doctrines in thier content. Archaeology always supports the Bible and never shows it to be in error.
Most if not every single one of the alleged contradictions has been addressed 1000 times over.
Thanks for the article though, to be completly objective though I will continue to review it.
D Bertot
Edited by bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by autumnman, posted 06-08-2008 11:26 AM autumnman has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 230 of 306 (469907)
06-08-2008 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by autumnman
06-08-2008 1:06 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
AM writes
Actually, it hasn’t! Mr. Snow said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly, faith is still involved, because only a relatively small part of the Bible consists of already fulfilled prophecies and historical statements that can be compared against other records or archeological discoveries.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bold font I have inserted indicates the portion of Mr. Snow’s statement I most want you to read and reply to.
As I pointed out before you are taking Mr. Snows statement out of context. When he says Faith is involved he does not mean to the discredidation of the scriptures. Nor is he saying that there is very little archeological information overall. His implication has to do with "historical statements" or claims, not with historical and archaelogical facts over all contained in the scripturess
It might also be helpful if you read the article I gave you on "arcaeology" and respond to some its contents, as I try to do for you. The arcaeological information contained therein is overwhelming and not "small" in any respect. Even if that is what Mr. Snow was saying he would be incorrect., but this is not what he is saying.
Ill get to the rest of this post after work and any other thing you wish to present.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by autumnman, posted 06-08-2008 1:06 PM autumnman has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 231 of 306 (469911)
06-08-2008 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by autumnman
06-08-2008 1:06 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
AM here is a fine one to get us started on the "nature" of alleged contradictions.
Page not found - Apologetics Press
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by autumnman, posted 06-08-2008 1:06 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by autumnman, posted 06-08-2008 6:58 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 235 of 306 (470075)
06-09-2008 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by autumnman
06-08-2008 6:58 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
The Amazing, debating, polemic AM responds, just kidding loser.
AM writes
I have read the article you shared. It was helpful insofar as attaining a grasp of how you perceive and comprehend the biblical texts. I found it rather interesting that on one hand all the biblical texts are regarded as “God Breathed”, and on the other hand an acknowledgement of”“our inability to solve a difficulty does not mean that it cannot be solved. We simply may not have enough information at present””is given. My question is: Why would there be “a difficulty” in the text if the text were in fact “God Breathed”? It does not make any good sense that a “Holy Spirit Inspired” two thousand year old text would convey “a difficulty” that our present information and knowledge cannot solve. We are, after all, in the first decade of the twenty-first century AD.
AM I am glad you you read DR. Kearleys article, this however, is not the one to which I was refering.
http://www.biblehistory.net/biblical_archaeology.htm
This is the one that I wanted you to examine. The one with all the wonderful data and presentation. It is filed with the archaeological info you seek.
Dr. Kearley was a friend of my father. Now this is a perfect example of how alleged contradictions are often applied and misunderstood. If someone 1000 years from now was to look at what I said about Dr. Kearly, they would say, hey wait a minute that is a contradiction. The father to which I refer, his name was Jackson, not actually, but I dont want to give it away on a website. But lets say it was Jackson. Someone would say how could he be Bertots Father. When in fact he was my "foster Father", the last name is completly different. But in the Text I simply said he was my Father, both are which are true however. Sometimes it is a misunderstanding this simple that arouses a percieved contradiction in the mind of a skeptic. Enough about my nutty family.
Am I am going to provide you with several websites to begin with, you are really going to love the first one. The principle behind doing this is to show you that my contention about these things being answered 1000 times over is true. Or we can play the ole, you set them up and Ill knock them down game, which could take forever and not enough threads. I will do that if you wish but I would rather not.
There are literally hundreds and hundreds of books written on the topic as well to which I can refer you as well.
Debate Topics: Apologetic
http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm
Page not found - Apologetics Press
These will get you started. The one about the ascension is in there as well. There are simple no alleged contradictions that cannot be resolved. Thousands of fine scholarly men and women over the years have eliminated all but the copists errors in explanation of the texts.
More in a minute
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by autumnman, posted 06-08-2008 6:58 PM autumnman has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 236 of 306 (470078)
06-09-2008 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by jaywill
06-09-2008 8:44 AM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
Jaywill writes:
Maybe God has more reserved places that we do not know about.
Remember Jesus telling the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise". And at another time the scripture says in Acts chapter 2. "I will not leave my sons soul in Hell" (actually Hades in the Greek). But then on his ressurection he told Mary "do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to the Father"., and ofcourse the Father would be in heaven. So Christ "went and preached to the souls that were in prison" (hades).
From Luke 16. Which we do not consder a parable but a true story we get an insight into the Hadean world. Paradise and a waiting torment. This is the only story where Jesus uses proper and specific names, indicating maybe this is real and not a parable. Abraham says there is a great gulf fixed. It is this place to which Christ refered when speaking to the thief on the cross and would explain his statment about not being touched because he had not yet ascended to the father. After his ascentision he then went to sit at the right hand of the father.
Elijah however, was taken to the hadean world where Abraham his Spiritual father was also.
There is no contradiction here either.
I am sure I am not giving a person with your knowledge any new information, however. But I hope it helps. Or you simply may not agree. I would be interested to know, thanks
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by jaywill, posted 06-09-2008 8:44 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by autumnman, posted 06-09-2008 6:13 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 238 of 306 (470225)
06-10-2008 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by autumnman
06-09-2008 6:13 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AM wrote: John 3:13 states: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven...” Yet, Gen. 5:24 describes God “taking Enoch”, & Hebrews 11:5 states that Enoch did not see death but was taken {a.k.a. translated} him. 2nd Kings 2:11 also states that, “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” Clearly there are inconsistencies in these biblical texts. Again, What can account for these types of inconsistencies if indeed the Holy Spirit was guiding these different authors?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is incredibly obvious that Luke does not agree with Mark or Acts, in the first example, and that John does not agree with Gen. or Hebrews, or 2nd Kings, in the second example. Either God and/or the Holy Spirit made a number of grievous mistakes, or human beings made these “Textual Inconsistencies”. Either the English Holy Bible is “God Breathed” or it is not.
Making up more superstitious stories will not resolve the two above examples of “Textual Inconsistencies” that exist in the English Holy Bible. Inventing or contriving a “supernatural” solution for these obvious “Textual Inconsistencies” is nothing more than an expression of one’s inability to resolve the above “Textual Inconsistencies” in a rational, reasonable, literate, and knowledgeable fashion. Either the English Holy Bible is blemish free or it is with blemish. It certainly appears as though the English Holy Bible is with more than one blemish. If God is without blemish and would not either inspire or guide the reproduction of a God-inspired literary document that was with blemish, then it appears as though human beings performed the “Textual Inconsistencies” we are currently examining. Thus, the English Holy Bible cannot honestly be said to be “God Breathed”!
Let’s either resolve the above “Textual Inconsistencies” in a reasonable fashion or let’s admit that they exist.
The first thing I would encourage you to do is read the evidence provided in the articles and websites i provided, apearently you havent.
Secondly, I would ask you to adjust your attitude and stop acting so abusive and simply respond to the information provided
The answer I provided in the Gospels, Acts and Luke fully explain from a scriptural context that there was a place to which Elijah, Enoch, Lazarus and the rich man went that was not strickly heaven, but a place in the spirit world that would be considered a heavenly place.
"today you will be with me in paradise"
"Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father"
Since the father is clearly in heaven, it would follow that this is not where Christ went.
Again, Luke chapter 16 gives us a glimps of that hadean world. The greek word for "grave", 'Hades', the place of disembodied spirits, is the place to which these OT charaters were translated.
It should not concern anyone that the text says they went to heaven. the arthor is simply using the term to mean "all" of the spirit world, instead a specific part, AS FURTHER DESCRIBED IN THE NT SCRIPTURES.
Peter says that "Christ went and preached to the spirits prison, that Were once disobedient in the time of Noah" I Peter 3:18-20
After his ascension he sat at the right hand of the father, which is in heaven.
Paul used the word "heaven" to desribe more than one specific place., I was caught up into the third heaven" 2Cor 12:2
Looking into the NT and the information provided, it is understandable that it (NT) makes clearer and gives an better understanding that was not made known in the Old Testament. In this case it gives us a better understanding of the Spirit World.
There is no contradiction about "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that that came down from heaven". The NT makes it clear by the passages I provided that "pardaise" is not heaven (the exact dwelling place of the throne of God)itself, but a part of the spirit world that the OT and NT writes through inspiration of the Holy Spirit made known by specification and indirect implication of the statements and situations presented. There are certainly different locations in the universe, such as galaxies and space and time itself, why could there not be specific and different loccations in the heavenly or spiritual realms as well?
Instead of crying "foul" and calling it "superstious stories" AM why not just deal with the argument I presented directly, show why my exegesis is incorrect in post 236.
Here are others that answers the questions more specifically.
It really would help if you respond to the arguments presented and stop crying foul.
http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_go.htm
http://www.carm.org/diff/John3_13.htm.
D Bertot
Edited by bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by bertot, : Specific clarification, in the distinction of locations in a given area.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by autumnman, posted 06-09-2008 6:13 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by autumnman, posted 06-10-2008 1:07 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 240 of 306 (470280)
06-10-2008 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by autumnman
06-10-2008 1:07 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
My attitude is not one of “acting abusive”. I am trying to respond to your posts and make my point in as straightforward a fashion as I can. My point remains the same. I sense that your superstition {not meant in an abusive way, but in stating the fact that facts are not contained in discussing the supernatural} does not allow you to respond in a rational or reasonable fashion. We really need to get the concepts of “above” and “below” clear in our minds; they are rational opposites.
AM, you simply are missing the point. Its from a scripturl point you are building your case against us, that naturally would involve the supernatural. If you wish to discuss it outside that context, that is a whole other debate. You are mixing oranges with appples. You cannot charge an allegation from a source and not expect a response form the same source. My responses have been scriptural and equal to your allegation. Try to atleast make logical sense. You are making no logical sense here.
“One does not ascend to that which is nether.”
This kind of a response is completly silly, due to the fact "nether" could be anywhere or in any direction in the spiritual world. Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise". Now since you have never been there what difference would it make how they got there. Atleast try and respond to the context of the argument without being so literal and silly. Who knows what direction or how one gets to Paradise, we only know from scripture that it was where Jesus went and it was NOT the exact place of the throne of God, yet still in the heavenly realms.
You still have not answered any scriptural or logical sense the argument presented. It demonstrates there is no contradiction .in John and other verses
I will get to the rest of your post after work tonite.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by autumnman, posted 06-10-2008 1:07 PM autumnman has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 241 of 306 (470284)
06-10-2008 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by autumnman
06-10-2008 1:07 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
The scripture says in another place that "the body returns to dust and the Siprit returns to God who gave it".
Now, this would give direction to "nether" and would explain the fact that God can place spirits of men anywhere he chooses.
I am certain if Hell does indeed exist that it is in the spirit world and not in the throne room of God. The scriptures make it plain that there is Paradise and there is the part of heaven that involves the presence of God himself and they are distinct by an examination of certain scriptures. Heck, if these scriptures did not make these distinctions, I would not believe it either, but they do and that is the point and that is why there is no contradiction.
D Bertot
Edited by bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by autumnman, posted 06-10-2008 1:07 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by autumnman, posted 06-10-2008 8:43 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 244 of 306 (470414)
06-11-2008 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by autumnman
06-10-2008 8:43 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
AM writes
I am reading the Text as the Scriptures present it. You, on the other hand, are trying to defend the indefensible.
Wow AM I had to read this post of yours a few times to see if what you were saying is really what you were saying. You do realize that we have discussed in he past the need to "not' take everything so ABSOLUTLEY LITERAL. I understand the concept of the "interpress", method, but a little common sense goes a long way.
You usually sound so very intelligent in your posts, but here I think you have slipped a gear or two, if you dont mind me saying.
You do realize that simply because a word has a very specific meaning or that a word such as Heaven, Hell, Hades or eternality carry the connotation of "up" or "down", they are only being used in that sense from our perspective, or the ancients perspective. Further, that in these existences, those terms or connotations dont really apply. That there is not any real "up" or "down" in space or the cosmos, these are "relative" terms. That when the scriptures says that Satan was cast down, it doesnt mean that he was literally pushed off a cliff of heaven, or something of that nature. You must be joking here AM, I cant believe a person of you intelligence cannot see this simple point
Furthermore, Hades is not Hell. The greek word for Hell is "Gehenna". The Greek word for Hades is "Sheol", or the grave. These two concepts are used to distinquish two seperate places in the Heavenly or Spiritual realms. Yes even Hell is a part of the Spiritual world.
Contrary to what you say about my positon being indefensible, it is very demonstratable from the scriptures as I have indicated and to which you have now not replied to two posts now that contain that information, in an effort to respond to your alleged contradiction.
Let’s just say, for the sake of your argument, that there is a “Spiritual Realm”. Now, within this “Spiritual Realm” there is Hades {a.k.a. Hell} that exists in the “nether” {a.k.a. beneath, under, lower} part of the “Spiritual Realm”, and there are a number of “heavens” to which one would ascend. “Being cast down into Hades”, would be the terminology used. “Ascending into a particular heaven”, would be the terminology used. Let’s see if a couple examples from the New and Old Testaments confirm this use of terminology:
Again there are no "lower" or "higher" parts to the Spiritual or Heavenly realms. One does not "literally" go down to Hades or "up" to Heaven. These are "Anthropomorphic" expressions and ideas to help us understand another deminsion, that is not common to us. One could say Satan was "C.ast Out" as easily as "Cast down". The meaning was that he was no longer welcome, Vamoose, dirt bag.
In John 3:13 the Greek term for “heaven” is preceded by the article {which serves to distinguish things more exactly}: ton ouranon= the heaven i.e. the abode of God. In 2nd Kings 2:1 the Hebrew term for “heaven” is also preceded by the definite article {when expressing emphasis or definiteness is intended}: hashamaym = the heavens i.e. the abode of God.
Your technical evaluation is very correct here. However, it does not give a specific discription of what is comprised inclusivley in that realm. the rest of the scriptures, to which you have not bothered to touch, help us get a closer discription of that realm.
Yes the "Heavens" are the abode of God, but that is not to say that all areas contain the same entities, Spirits, demons or other realitys. Heaven or the spiritual realms most certainly do contain different locations and areas, as described and pointed out by the scriptures I have offered you. If Jesus was not in the exact prsence of God after his death, as he indicated to Mary, then where was he? Answer, given by Jesus himself, "in Paradise", with the "spirits" and atleast one thief that was on the cross. After his ascension, he went to sit at the right hand of God in his direct presence. This is absolute proof, altleast from the scriptures, that ther is distance and location in those realms.
From the earthly perspective there is obvious indication that the "heavens", those immediatley "above" our heads is upward. Jesus was lifted "up" before thier eyes. I dont think however, that it was necessary for him to keep going upward past the galaxies and entire universe to get to the spiritual realm. This is the case in the instance when he "appeared" to them in the room in which they were gathered. He no doubt simply transported himself from the "spiritual" world to the Physical world, in an instant. The same would be the case on the road to Emmaus. He did not go upward or down wards, He simply "vanished" from thier presences.
While Enoch and Elijah were transported upward initially they were no doubt "spiritually" transported to another deminsion instantly and the NT in Luke 16, and Jesus' words to the thief gives us the specific location of that "heavenly" realm. Even if it was not in the exact prsence of God, he is most certainly in charge of it all.
You would need to demonstrate that there are no different locations and areas in the spiritual realm for your alleged contradiction to have any validity. Since the scriptures clearly indicate there are, you have no case. Definitions of words certainly help us, but they don help your case.
You do not have to acknowledge these “Textual Inconsistencies”, but that does not mean they do not exist; for they clearly and plainly do exist.
I am more than happy to ackowledge these texts, but they present no inconsistencies as you wish and indicate. You are simply over applying the terms and taking them out of any real concept or reality.
D Bertot
Edited by bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by autumnman, posted 06-10-2008 8:43 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by autumnman, posted 06-11-2008 12:36 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 245 of 306 (470534)
06-11-2008 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Archer Opteryx
06-11-2008 2:38 AM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
Hey Archer could you provide a couple.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Archer Opteryx, posted 06-11-2008 2:38 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 247 of 306 (470698)
06-12-2008 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by autumnman
06-11-2008 12:36 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
Autnman writes
Yes, my grammatical evaluation is very correct. And it does give a specific description - by employing the definite article {the heaven(s) - where the LORD took Elijah.
But, none of that matters! I understand. The Holy Spirit is guiding you to essentially write your own Holy Scriptures and that is all that matters.
I was honest my friend when I said your grammarical correctness in those verses was right. However, as I have pointed out in numerous posts now, grammatical correctness in a few verses is not a "comprehensive" overall understanding of a biblical principle. It takes what the scriptures has to say in its entirity on the matter to draw a texttual, scriptural, logical and valid conclusion on the subject at hand.
In this case it is, what constitutes the Heavenly realms and what the scriptures can offer to aid us and assist ourunderstanding of this subject matter.
You are still not understanding that your definitions of these words most certainly DO NOT provide a Specific Description of Heaven, but are in fact very general in character and principle when speking of "heaven" or "Heavens". It takes the Books, Chapters and verses that I have been using as a defense of my positon to get a clearer understanding of those specifics.
Other than complaining about the verse and explanations I offered, you have not touched, referenced or even tried to rebut a single thing I have offered. They most specfically do offer a more refined view of the spiritual world or Heavenly realm.
You are talking nonsense. To suggest that the Holy Spirit guided these other writers but that we are not to translate what they wrote is utter nonsense. To suggest that when someone writes “ascended to heaven” they did not really mean “ascended to heaven” is nonsense.
Sometimes I think you dont pay a bit of attention to what I have offered. I never said we should not translate. Did I not say, that your explanation of those verses was correct. You are now contradicting yourself AM. Also, I never said any verse that mentioned ascension, did not mean "acscended to heaven". You are not paying a bit of attention. What I said was that the rest of the scritures make it much clearer as to what part or location of the Heavenly realm souls were translated to. Far from being nonsense it makes perfect sense.
If it did not you would have already addressed the things I presented, you have not.
I really do not care. I look at the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures as “ancient literature.” I expect there to be “Contextual Inconsistencies.”
That you start with this conclusion may be reasonable, that you end up at the same conclusion after examining the evidence is to me surprising and sad.
For a Christian to accept that there are “scribal errors” even though the rendering of the English Holy Bible was supposedly “guided by The Holy Spirit, is a contradiction. And then to make the claim that the “autograph” of each book of the Bible was originally without error when no one has ever seen these “autographs” because they no longer exist is an absurd claim.
Bertot, you are listening to the convoluted words of men. If you are fine with that, so be it.
You have a misguided and convoluted understanding of what the truth is and how it was revealed to humankind. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a perfect example of how God has kept the principle doctrines and teachings of his, unfettered by human philosophy.
Your thinking is further misguided, because you immdieatley "dismiss" the possibility of providence and intervention in the process. This is strange given the fact that you believe in God
Your estimation that there is contradiction in God allowing scribal errors is not warrented. Often times the people that were vessels of the Word of God or those that had been imparted spirtual gifts, misunderstood the exact nature and reason of the gift. This is indicated in both the OT and NT. In the OT Jonah was a phrophet to Nenivah, yet dispised the very people to which he went to speak. His request to God was why not just destroy them and get it over with. Yet in all this process God inspired Jonah to speak the correct things to this people. God was in complete control and prevented Jonah's feelings to interefer with the basic message to this people.
In the NT, in 1Cor 12 and 13, the people had began to misunderstand the puppose and nature of the spiritual gifts given them. They had began to boast against eachother about the level or status of thier gifts. Yet in all this process there is no indication that the Holy Spirit (God) was not in control of the gifts and still allowed them to fulfill there purposes, the human agent "notwithstanding"
This is you major weakness AM. You cannot see the very reasonable and understandable "hand of God" in the process of his divine revealed truth throught the ages. You start with the preconcieved and unwarrented conclusion that the creator of the universe has not intervined in the affairs of men. The scriptures however, that we have been debating are more than a small indication that such has taken place.
AM here are a couple of other articles for yours and others consideration.
http://www.carm.org/demo/Bible/reliable.htm
Inspired Writers and Competent Copyists - Apologetics Press
Thanks again,
D Bertot
Edited by bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by autumnman, posted 06-11-2008 12:36 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by autumnman, posted 06-12-2008 8:45 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 248 of 306 (470817)
06-12-2008 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by autumnman
06-11-2008 12:36 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
AM writes
For a Christian to accept that there are “scribal errors” even though the rendering of the English Holy Bible was supposedly “guided by The Holy Spirit, is a contradiction. And then to make the claim that the “autograph” of each book of the Bible was originally without error when no one has ever seen these “autographs” because they no longer exist is an absurd claim.
Still interested on our direct subject matter of the Hebrew Eden Narrative and ancient texts, I have been trying to doing a little study and research. Here is a article I think you might find of some interest.
The Masoretic Text of the Old Testament
By V. S. Herrell
The Masoretic Text, other than the Dead Sea Scrolls, is the only existing representation of the Old Testament in Hebrew. The oldest fragments date from the 9th century AD, but the oldest complete texts come from the 10th and 11th centuries AD. However, the Hebrew text that it contains is clearly not the original Hebrew, nor even the Hebrew that was in use in the 1st century AD. The Hebrew of the 1st century AD was closely akin to the Greek Septuagint that we have today; this is clear because, although the Hebrew was little used, when it was used in ancient writing it was clearly in agreement with the Greek Septuagint rather than the Masoretic Text. For example, although Philo and Josephus both used the Greek Septuagint, it is believed by most scholars that they frequently had access to a Hebrew Bible and even consulted it on a few occasions. It is through evidence like this that we see that the then current Hebrew disagreed with the Hebrew Masoretic Text of today. In the 1st century, the Christians and all other Greek speaking Israelites, including 1,000,000 of them who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, used the Greek Septuagint. Jesus and His Apostles wrote in Greek and quoted the Greek Septuagint. Of this there can be no doubt. This is a fact that can be confirmed in any encyclopedia or scholarly book on the subject. As we have already pointed out, we know this because the quotations of the Greek New Testament are exactly aligned with the Greek Septuagint, but in sharp opposition to the Hebrew Masoretic Text. There is, however, no reason to believe that they were in disagreement with the Hebrew that was current in the 1st century AD.
What we do know is that toward the end of the 1st century AD and into the 2nd century, the Talmudic, Edomite Jews were actively attacking the Greek Septuagint because it was used by the Christians. They felt that they could discredit the Christians merely for the reason that they used Greek, and at the same time, they began twisting the Hebrew Scriptures to try and disprove that Jesus was the true Messiah. This controversy roared on until at least the 4th and 5th centuries AD. We have already noted how the early Catholics attacked the Vulgate translation of Jerome because it was the first to be based upon Hebrew, and they continued for a very long time to use the Old Latin because it was based upon the Greek Septuagint. One of the most famous examples of how the Jews attacked the Greek Septuagint regarded the word virgin. The particular verse in question is Isaiah 7:14, which reads in the Greek Septuagint:
"Therefore, the Master Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will conceive in the womb, and will bring forth a Son, and you will call His Name Emmanuel."
In the Greek, the word for virgin is parthenos, and it literally means a virgin. In the Masoretic Text, however, the word is almah which means a young girl. The usual Hebrew word for virgin, and the word in every case translated virgin in the Revised Version, is bethuwlah. This verse is quoted from Isaiah in the Christian Scriptures in Matthew 1:23. The Jews attacked the Septuagint from the beginning because they claimed that it had been corrupted by the Christians and that the Christians changed the word in the Septuagint to read virgin instead of young woman so that it would support the reading in Matthew. Of course, the Edomite Jews did not believe that Jesus was the true Messiah; this was why they were attacking the Septuagint. The Jews are the ones who changed the Hebrew, replacing the word virgin with young woman. The early motive of the Edomite Jews was to destroy Christianity, not just the Septuagint. But the Christians did not give in, so the Jews changed their strategy. They instead decided to corrupt the Old Testament and gain control of the Christians by giving them a corrupted Old Testament. By the 3rd century they began collecting every Hebrew manuscript they could, and this was easy to do because the Christians used the Greek Septuagint and cared little for the Hebrew. They then began revising the Hebrew documents to support their Jewish contentions. By the time of Jerome, they began taking the soft approach and gave Jerome their new Hebrew for him to use in his translation. But, as we said before, the Christians at first rejected the Vulgate. So the Jews continued working on their text. From the 1st century to the middle of the 5th century, they called themselves Talmudists; from the 5th century to the completion of their text in the 10th-11th centuries, they called themselves Masoretes.
At the end of this time, all other Hebrew manuscripts except for the Masoretic Text disappeared. The fact is that they were destroyed by the same people who had gathered them up - the Talmudic, Masoretic Jews. Then the Jews began presenting themselves as the diligent preservers of the Hebrew Bible and began deceiving Christians. They no longer blatantly attacked the Septuagint but rather touted themselves as being faithful servants of God. To this end, when the Masoretic Text was finished, they counted every letter and word and contrived mechanisms to insure that the manuscripts would be faithfully transmitted, but they did not bother to account for the editing and corruption that they themselves had been doing for the previous 600-700 years. The early English translations of the Bible were based upon the Latin Vulgate, but the Jews intended to deceive the Christians into translating their Bibles from the Hebrew Masoretic Text. So their new strategy was to win over the stupid Christians, but the old motives were always there. At this time, they had to do an about-face on the issue of virgin. They had learned that the Christians would not accept the Hebrew as long as such blatant blasphemies were contained in it. This deception on the part of the mongrel, Talmudic Jews can be seen in an early Spanish translation of the Masoretic Text. Geddes MacGregor, in his book, The Bible in the Making (pg. 279) writes:
Translations of the Hebrew Bible into various languages, began to appear about that time. In 1422 Rabbi Moses Arragel translated the Scriptures from the Hebrew into Spanish, for the Christian Church and with the assistance of Franciscan scholars, and it is upon that version that the Ferrara Bible, printed in 1553, was based. This famous Spanish Bible was intended to serve the needs of both Jews and Christians. Certain deviations were made in the copies intended for Christian readers. For example, where the copies intended for Jews read 'young woman,' the copies set aside for Christian use put 'virgin.'
Through this means of deception, the atheistic Jews pulled off the grand deception when they convinced the translators of the KJV to use the Masoretic Text instead of the Latin or Greek. Today, the so-called "Christian" world believes in the lie of the Hebrew Bible, even though all Christians for the first four centuries of Christianity universally used the Greek Septuagint or a translation of it, including the Master Jesus the Anointed and His Ambassadors.
When this so-called controversy is examined from a purely textual point-of-view, then we find that the undisputed facts are the following, and I say 'undisputed' because these facts are admitted even by the most staunch supporters of the Masoretic Text.
In regards to the Masoretic Text, the manuscripts date from around AD1000. The manuscripts are admittedly altered from their original form, for vowel symbols have been added and the text has been revised in light of Talmudic tradition. The Masoretic Text is based upon the Hebrew which was rejected by the early Christians, who were the true Israel of God.
In regards to the Septuagint, the oldest manuscripts date to around AD325-350 (though fragments are much older). It was never purposely changed or edited, but the oldest texts of the Septuagint represent the oldest surviving descendants of an ancient translation made of the Hebrew in the 3rd century BC which was considered divinely inspired by most Judeans at that time. It was universally accepted by the early Christians for the first 400 years of Christianity and was used and quoted from by Jesus and His Apostles, who quoted from it under divine inspiration.
Again, the above facts are admitted even by the supporters of the Masoretic Text. What logic, then, is used to justify the use and preferment of the Masoretic Text? Those who use it believe that the Talmudic, Edomite Jews who murdered Jesus Christ are the chosen people of God and therefore the chosen preservers of God's Word. However, we are told the following by Jesus in John 8 regarding these same Edomite Jews who wrote the Talmud and created the Masoretic Text:
"You neither know Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, then you would have known My Father also. ...Where I go, you are not able to come ... You are from below; I am from above. You are from this world, I am not from this world. ... If you were children of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham. ... You do the works of your father. ... If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I went forth and have come from God. For I have not come from Myself, but that one sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to hear My Word.. You are of your father the Diabolical One, and the lusts of your father you wish to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it" (AST).
Notice that Jesus said that these Edomite Talmudists were not capable of hearing His Word, they were not capable of doing anything but the works of their father, who was a liar from the beginning. Now this means that in no way were these Talmudic Jews, who later called themselves Masoretes, capable of being divinely inspired "preservers" of God's Word. Because of the Words of Jesus, we must assume this to be a blatant lie.
But even beyond these points, from a purely objective, scientific point-of-view, when we apply the science of Textual Criticism to this controversy, we must again decide in favor of the Greek Septuagint. We remember that the fundamental rule of Textual Criticism is usually that the older the text, the better, and the complete Septuagint version of the Old Testament outdates the complete Masoretic Text version by 650-700 years.
The second rule that we must implement is that not all manuscripts are of the same value. Again, this value issue is clear for these two witnesses: the Septuagint is representative of a 3rd century BC Hebrew text; the Masoretic is representative of a 7th-9th century AD revision of the Hebrew.
Thus, there can be no doubt as to which text is to be preferred. The Septuagint is superior in every way to the Judaized Masoretic Text (V. S. Herrell, The History of the Bible, p. 51-57).
Adam Clark's Commentary
Adam Clarke, an 18th Century Anglican Scholar, makes it clear that the work of the Masoretes is, in reality, a commentary which has been integrated into the body of Scripture. However, Clarke points out that the Hebrew of the Masoretic Text (Masoretic Hebrew) is quite different from the Hebrew of the Patriarchs, (Ancient Hebrew) in which Old Covenant Scripture was originally written.
In the General Preface of his commentary on the Scripture, published in 1810, Clarke writes:
"The Masorets were the most extensive Jewish commentators which that nation could ever boast. The system of punctuation, probably invented by them, is a continual gloss on the Law and the Prophets; their vowel points, and prosaic and metrical accents, &c., give every word to which they are affixed a peculiar kind of meaning, which in their simple state, multitudes of them can by no means bear. The vowel points alone add whole conjugations to the language. This system is one of the most artificial, particular, and extensive comments ever written on the Word of God; for there is not one word in the Bible that is not the subject of a particular gloss through its influence. This school is supposed to have commenced about 450 years before our Lord, and to have extended down to AD1030. Some think it did not commence before the 5th century A.D."
Even without adding to, deleting from, or changing a single letter of the Ancient Hebrew manuscripts of Scripture, pointing gave the Masorete power to dramatically change the meaning of almost any given passage of Scripture, for the prerogative of selecting vowels, is, to a large extent, the prerogative of selecting words! As a crude example, consider how the meaning of an English sentence might be changed by substitution of the word "poor" for the word "pure" - a substitution which may be effected by a simple change of vowels.
Clarke appears to be one of the few commentators who have seen fully the significance of the Masoretic Text - namely, that it is a new "version" of the Scripture, written in a new language. Obviously, Hebrew Scholars have been aware of this fact. They should have called attention to the difference between Ancient Hebrew and the language of the Masoretes, and should have differentiated the two, by use of names such as Ancient Hebrew and Masoretic Hebrew. However, the majority of Hebrew scholars are "Jewish", and thus cannot be expected to be objective and candid regarding such a matter.
Louis Cappel, Hebrew Scholar:
One of the first scholars to investigate the matter was Louis Cappel, a French Huguenot divine and scholar who lived from 1585 to 1658. Consider the following excerpt from the article, "CAPPEL, LOUIS," found in the 1948 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica.
"As a Hebrew scholar, he concluded that the vowel points and accents were not an original part of Hebrew, but were inserted by the Masorete Jews of Tiberias, not earlier then the 5th Century AD, and that the primitive Hebrew characters are Aramaic and were substituted for the more ancient at the time of the captivity. . . The various readings in the Old Testament Text and the differences between the ancient versions and the Masoretic Text convinced him that the integrity of the Hebrew text as held by Protestants, was untenable. This amounted to an attack upon the verbal inspiration of Scripture. Bitter, however, as was the opposition, it was not long before his results were accepted by scholars."
Further study: On this Rock I Stand; The 'Lost' Books of the Old Testament and The Book of Esther. Changing LINKS masorete.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second Coming of Christ
The Masoretic Text of the Old Testament
Let me know what you think?
D Bertot
Edited by bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by autumnman, posted 06-11-2008 12:36 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by autumnman, posted 06-12-2008 9:47 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 250 of 306 (470819)
06-12-2008 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by autumnman
06-12-2008 8:45 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
I will get to this very brief (249)post in a while.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by autumnman, posted 06-12-2008 8:45 PM autumnman has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 112 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 251 of 306 (470824)
06-12-2008 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by autumnman
06-12-2008 8:45 PM


Re: The Hebrew Eden Narrative Map
Bertot writes
I am sure I am not giving a person with your knowledge any new information, however. But I hope it helps. Or you simply may not agree. I would be interested to know, thanks
Compliments are like perfume, they should be inhaled not swallowed. The statement above, by myself was made to Jaywill, not yourself. Although I consider you very knowlegable as well Autunman.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by autumnman, posted 06-12-2008 8:45 PM autumnman has not replied

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