Biblical Translation—Eden, 4

Admin. The Biblical Translation-Eden threads have been extremely popular and there is a great deal more discussion and debate that can be exchanged regarding the content of this particular subject.The following is a reply from bertot to what autumnman had composed: This is a very interesting position and warrents alot of discussion andI am eager to get toit.Could you ask them if we can continue?D BertotBertot and autumanman are hoping you will allow us to continue discussing this subject by granting us a new thread--Biblical Translation--Eden, 4.Thank you for your help. And we hope to hear from you soon since we have just exceeded the 300 post limit on B.T--Eden,3.All the best,
autumnman/Ger

bertot & IamJoseph:Wow! I went to sleep and woke up eleven posts behind you guys.Let me make a couple general statements now and I'll attempt to be a bit more specific down the road.In regard to taking someone's word for a claim they are making, I do not perceive any difference between someone claiming that God came to them or someone claiming that they went to God. Either way we the listeners or readers of the claim are left with nothing more than some other human being's word.I employ the English term inspiration--meaning Man connecting with God/the infinite--as it applies to the Hebrew Eden Narrative being in my view an inspired ancient Wisdom Text. The term inspired does not invoke the idea of supernatural intervention but rather conveys the concept of a mortal human being in deep and profound contemplation of mortal reality as it occurs on planet earth.I'll be back in a bit. All the best,
Ger

bertot:

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AM writes: this ancient and unique Hebrew Text describes in stunning detail {employing Hebrew Wisdom-Literature: riddle, metaphor, and poetic allegory} that which is documented in the tangible ground of The Holy Land. Thus, I perceive the Hebrew Eden Narrative as a “valid” poetic description of the human evolution that actually occurred and is documented in the actual dirt of the Holy Land.

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Yes. I am implying biological evolution, but it is, in my opinion, biological evolution plus a sublime mystery that I cannot readily attribute to biological evolution alone. According to the lexicographic definitions and applications of the Hebrew terms used in the composition of the Hebrew Eden Narrative it certainly appears as though the author is describing at a certain point in Man’s evolution God began to endow him with human consciousness. Gen. 2:7 concludes with the clause “and Man became in regard to nepesh chayah=a breathing animal” {BDB Lexicon: “elsewhere nepesh chayah always of animals Gn 1:20, 24,30; 2:19; 9:12, 15, 16; Ez 47:9” (pg659). What my research has discovered is that the Hebrew Eden Narrative is based on both physical information and inspiration {i.e. deep, profound contemplation of the Sublime Eternal Mystery of Life). Do I believe they got it correct? Insofar as the Hebrew Eden Narrative conveying, “>eleh tholedoth hashamayim veha>eretz behibare>am=these are the human generations as they are created” (Gen. 2:4a), the author is on the mark, in my opinion. The way to the metaphorical 0etz hachayiym=tree of this life is between “the like of much greatness and the flame of war’s desolation,” as well as, “the like of much abundance and the consuming blaze of desolation.” And this sounds remarkably like “But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest; for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil” (Luke 7:35).This conveys not only “eternal wisdom” but “practical wisdom” as well. In my opinion, “the category of a sort of ”supernatural speculation’,” does not exist. A text that conveys both eternal and practical wisdom would fall under the category of Hebrew Wisdom Literature. If someone, like yourself, needs to believe that a supernatural Deity or source was in play in order to receive the message conveyed by the Hebrew Eden Narrative, then so be it. But if one’s belief in the supernatural distorts, clouds, or alters the eternal and practical wisdom being conveyed by the Hebrew Eden Narrative, then the supernatural approach to the Text is less than helpful. In my opinion, no “faith” or “belief” is required. It sounds as though you misunderstood my implication. The ancient author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative explained much; it is I who am amazed by what the author knew, and I am as yet unable to explain how the author knew what he conveys through the riddles, metaphors, and allegories composed within the context of the Hebrew Eden Narrative. I do not jump at a chance to embrace any kind of “supernatural intervention.” You, on the other hand, have difficulty progressing without the notion of “supernatural intervention.” I am not of any religious or “spiritual” order or doctrine that exists, or ever has existed on planet earth”as far as I know. You, on the other hand, are, or at least sound as if you are, a Pauline Christian who believes in Pauline Christianity.What exactly is this “medical, historical, scientific and other related information in the scriptures” that you claim is there? All I need is Book, Chapter, and Verse. All I need is Book, Chapter, and Verse. Absolutely. I would be happy to show you if you are actually interested. Be prepared, however, what the Hebrew Eden Narrative conveys will be in stark contrast to what you have been taught and have come to believe.All the best,
Ger

bertot:

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AM writes: Again, the term “inspired””as applied in this context”denotes Man going to God {so to speak}, NOT God intervening in the affairs of Man through supernatural means. Using this definition of the term “inspired”= “Man connecting with the Eternal”, then the answer is “yes”, the contents of the Hebrew Eden Narrative warrants the conclusion that Man through Eternal-inspiration composed what is conveyed in the Hebrew Eden Narrative.I hope the above aids us in moving along with our discussion.

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Whether the “inspiration” I detect in the composition of the Hebrew Eden Narrative is to “be regarded as more enlightening than other men’s estimations, in the context of human inspiration” is to be determined by the content conveyed within the Hebrew Eden Narrative’s context.If, for example, the Pauline interpretation of the “Adam & Eve” scenario is absolutely the correct and only interpretation of the Hebrew Eden Text”Man through disobedience and sin brought about the mortal life and the natural environment into which you and I were born”then the story of “Adam & Eve” would be less inspirational than other men’s estimations. Furthermore, the Pauline interpretation of the “Adam & Eve” scenario does not fit into the Sixth Day of Creation described in the Genesis 1:1 through 2:1 account of Creation. The Sixth Day of Creation concludes in Gen. 1:31 which states, “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold it was very good” (KJV). The terminology, “very good,” is incongruent with “disobedience, sin, and death,” as well as God angrily driving the humans from the Garden of Eden. Yet, right after the Sixth Day of Creation comes the God’s Day of Rest. God “ended his work” “and he rested.” Neither the Hebrew Eden Narrative, nor the story of “Adam & Eve” make any mention of God’s Day of Rest. According to the Eden Text”Hebrew & Pauline”God’s work continues: God questions the human archetypes; God curses the serpent, the woman, the man; God makes coverings of skin; God says “Behold, the humans have become as one of us in regard to knowing good and bad; God sends and drives the humans from the Garden of Eden; and God places the Cherubim and flame of the sword which turns every way. No rest there. So the questions arise, “At what point in the Pauline interpretation of the “Adam & Eve” story does God bless the humans and say, “Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth and subdue it” (Gen. 1:28)? And at what point does God actually end his work of creation and rest (Gen. 2:2)?For the humans to “replenish the earth and subdue it” would not the humans have to leave the Garden of Eden and return to the ground from which it/he was taken (Gen. 3:23)?There are a considerable number of contextual disconnects between the Pauline interpretation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative, referred to as the Story of “Adam & Eve”, and the Gen. 1”2:3 Creation Account. Unless these contextual disconnects can be resolved in some fashion”and it would be great if you can”the Story of “Adam & Eve” appears to be based on an incorrect and misleading translation and interpretation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative.The interpres translation and Hebrew Wisdom Literature interpretation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative that I am proposing”though I do not claim it/them to be completely and absolutely correct”at very least resolves the contextual disconnects mentioned above, as well as makes no claim that Man had any hand in creating mortality and the natural world into which you and I were born.All the best,
Ger

WHAT? I say, WHAT?
You have got to be kidding me! Exactly where “in recorded history” is the term “inspired” exploited and “responsible for more deaths than any other word?I would have thought that term would have been “righteousness””as in: “In the Name of God.” All we have to do is read the Old Testament Book of Joshua and start counting bodies.All the best,
Ger

bertot: Take a deep breath, my friend. The only way that the manner in which I define “inspired” can be perceived as “vague” is if someone does not know the definition of the word “inspired” and mistakenly thinks it means “madness.”
In my dictionary the term inspire is defined: 1. INHALE. 2. to influence, move, or guide by divine inspiration. 3. exert an animating, enlivening, or exalting influence upon. 4. AFFECT. 5. CREATE. 6. INCITE. 7. to spread by indirect means.The context and content of the Hebrew Eden Narrative speaks for itself. I merely translate it and interpret it to the best of my ability. As I stated in my previous post, the Pauline Christian interpretation of the “Story of Adam & Eve” does not correspond with the Sixth and Seventh Days describe in the Gen. 1”2:3 Hebrew Narrative, and does not correspond with natural-mortal reality into which you and I were born. Gen. 1:31 & 2:1 state:

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And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. (KJV)

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Now, where in those two verse that speak to the conclusion of God’s creation of the heavens and the earth does the author imply “disobedience”, “sin”, “the divinely enacted/human created capital punishment of mortal death”, “God angrily expelling the humans from the Garden of Eden”? Where in the above two verses does the author allude to or suggest that Man’s deliberate disobedience played any part in God’s creation of the mortal heavens and earth or the mortal hosts of them?Answer the above questions; point out where the author of Gen. 1”2:3 states that what God created”i.e. finished creating”of the heavens and the earth and the hosts of them was not good and I will shut up.All the best,
Ger

bertot: Yes, my conclusions are indeed my conclusions. However, the Hebrew bound morphemes, words, clauses, phrases, sentences are not mine. I did not write the Hebrew Eden Narrative. I am interpres translating the ancient Hebrew Text, and I am employing ancient Hebrew wisdom literature as my exegetical guide as I attempt an interpretation of that Text. I do not claim to be absolutely correct, nor to I claim to have all the answers. All I can present as my translation and interpretation of the Hebrew Eden Narrative is what I personally perceive the Text as conveying. That is the best I can do. I do not have to know how or why God does anything. The Hebrew Eden Narrative is my principle focus. I don’t know why that is so hard for you to grasp. Whatever epiphany I have regarding the “how and why God does things” will be my epiphany and would not and will not alter what the Hebrew Eden Narrative is conveying in the least. The Hebrew Eden Narrative will do the “inspiring” not me. And if someone is not inspired by the Hebrew Eden Narrative that lack of inspiration is not my problem. I still have not yet made myself clear to you. The corroborating evidence of what the Hebrew Eden Narrative is conveying is the everyday natural metaphors employed by the author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative. Whether 100 thousand years ago, 10 thousand years ago, 4 thousand years ago, 100 years ago, or today; dust is dust, rain is rain, a field is a field, a river is a river, a tree is a tree, a serpent is a serpent, the ground is still the ground. When used as metaphors these everyday naturally occurring aspects of mortal reality corroborate the author’s use of them as metaphors in a literary text. The metaphor used in the literary text can be traced to the actual aspect of mortal reality, and that actual aspect of mortal reality will guide one to understand the author’s use of the metaphor. It is just that easy. This is not a difficult process.All the best,
Ger

bertot: You haven't read the two creation accounts very thoroughly have you. So When did God rest on the Seventh Day? Or Did he rest and then everything went bad. So, he must have rested between Gen. 2:25 and 3:1? A day of rest as important as the Seventh Day of God's rest goes without saying? And, If "Adam & Eve" are still in the Garden of Eden, when are they to be blessed and told to go forth and multiply and fill the earth (Gen.1:28)?When does Man's Free Will cause all the problems; and, according to the Pauline interpretation, those problems are part of God's creation.Come on, bertot, read the biblical texts under consideration before replying. That will make our discussion move along so much easier.All the best,
Ger

IamJoseph: The Gen. 1:31 Hebrew phrase reads: vehineh-tob me>od= and behold good exceedingly The Hebrew masculine noun me>od denotes exceedingly, greatly, very. The Hebrew demonstrative participle hineh denotes emphatic certainty, certainly, surely. Therefore, the clause under consideration means: everything God had made was "with emphatic certainty good exceedingly". Then we go on to Gen. 2:1, which states, "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished {kalah=be complete, at an end, finished, accomplished}, and all the host of them.I'd say "finished" means "finished".All the best,
Ger

bertot: From what I know about Buddhism”ending mortal suffering through enlightenment”I would say, “Yes, they were inspired.” However, this type of inspiration is quite different than that which I perceive in the composition of the Hebrew Eden Narrative. In my opinion, the author of the Hebrew Eden Narrative conveys how human being have become the human beings we are, as well as how we can once again return to the consciousness of the human beings we once were. In my opinion the Hebrew Eden Narrative conveys very much the same thing that Jesus was conveying when he said that “Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.”All the best,
GerIts past midnight and I need my beauty sleep. Talk to you guys in the morn. I am enjoying our discussions a great deal. Thanks.

bertot: You actually have not idea what “sublime mystery” means at all, do you? That is really too bad.Let me try to approach “Man’s imagination” from this direction: A “supernatural” event that is described in the Bible is a described, literary event that cannot be corroborated by reality and the natural laws and phenomena that constitute reality. That is the definition of “supernatural”: Of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural. This event is described in human language in a man-made book, the Holy Bible, and yet there is no way that anyone can employ facts or reality to confirm or support the assertion that such a “supernatural event” ever occurred.
All we can do is read the book in which the “supernatural event” is described, and because the book claims that God”the Creator of all that is created”created everything that same God can alter the laws and phenomena that constitute reality any time he wishes. And so we claim that because the book”written by humans and read by humans”makes this statement, it makes “reasonable” sense to conclude that the book and the “supernatural events” described in it are not of the human imagination, but are in fact God’s Truth.
However, such reasoning is not “reasonable”, that is to say; not “agreeable to sound judgment, and not logical; i.e. not in accord with the science that investigates the principles governing correct and reliable inferences. There is absolutely nothing “reliable” about a “supernatural event” that is only described in a man-made book.There is absolutely nothing more “imaginary” than a human being making a claim of a “supernatural event.” On the other hand, a human being employing “natural laws and phenomena” as metaphors in a narrative describing extraordinary events”such as the creation {coming into being} of modern human consciousness; humans moving from hunter gatherer cultures to agrarian and urbanized societies”is not only corroborated by natural laws and phenomena, but by archeological, paleontological, and anthropological sciences as well. Therefore, although the narrative may be the work of the human imagination, what that human imagined is confirmed and supported by actual, real-world facts.That is as clear as I can make it at this time. I hope the above dissertation helps you further grasp what I am trying to share. This appears to be where our minds become disconnected. Contrary to your imagination, the Holy Bible and the Hebrew Old Testament are compositions written by man, through man, to man and for man. An unsubstantiated claim of “supernatural intervention” does not change that fact. A claim made by use of human literary and spoken language that a “supernatural event” had once occurred is as “unreliable” as a claim made by a human being can possibly be. Said “supernatural event”, by its very lack of having natural law and natural phenomena as its corroboration, cannot be embraced as a “reliable” or “logical” or “reasonable” inference {i.e. a conclusion based on evidence). The only actual “reliable, logical, and reasonable conclusion” that can be made regarding the authorship and/or inspiration of the Holy Bible and/or the Hebrew Old Testament is that human beings composed these literary texts.The human authorship of these ancient literary texts, however, does not in any way diminish their contribution to human consciousness or invalidate their content. All human authorship of the Holy Bible and the Hebrew Old Testament does is make their content subject to the laws and phenomena of nature and the logic and reason involved in the critical analysis by the human beings who read and study them.All the best,
Ger

IamJoseph: I agree with you. There are indeed human writing in the Hebrew Old Testament that defy the premise of man's input.All the best,
Ger

bertot: I understand. Take your time; take care of all that is going on in you life. Unless my computer stops working I am not going anywhere. I am enjoying our discussions and debates a great deal. Whenever you get a chance, I am looking forward to reading your point of view.Have a good one,
Ger

bertot: I did not mean to “jump on you””so to speak. And no one is implying that anyone should “understand a mystery.” It is “understanding” or acknowledging that there is a “sublime mystery” is what I was attempting to communicate. Let me take you through the Hebrew word for “word”:The verb; dabar=to speak.masculine noun; dabar=speech & word.masculine noun; deber=pestilence (much like a word that is spoken in anger or error).feminine noun; dibarah=cause, reason, manner.feminine noun; deborah=honey bee, as pollinating or stinging (much like a word).masculine noun; debiyr=holy of holies; throne-room of God.feminine noun; dabereth=word.masculine noun; midebar=mouth, as organ of speech.masculine noun; midebar=the wilderness, the steppe (Ex. 15:22; 16:1; 19:1 wilderness of the wanderings).The above renditions come from the BDB Heb.-Eng. Lexicon of the Old Testament.The Hebrew Eden Narrative begins with the first letter and so the first “word” of the Hebrew writing system. This beginning of the Hebrew Eden Narrative has been hidden in Gen. 2:4 when in fact it should have been regarded as either Gen. 2:1 or more accurately Gen. 1:1 since the Hebrew Eden Narrative is the oldest Narrative in the Hebrew Tanakh, and its actual origin is a “sublime mystery.”The first two Hebrew letters of the Hebrew Eden Narrative form the word for “God”=>el, and the third letter, h denotes “the third person singular pronoun” he is, she is, it is. Therefore, the first three letters of the Hebrew Eden Narrative > l h state, God is he/she/it=these human generations of the heavens and the earth as they are being created, at the time God makes earth and heavens (Gen. 2:4, BHS).Do you get a glimpse of what I am trying to share with you?All the best,
Ger

bertot: So good to hear from you. I hope your busy life is moving along smoothly. Let's see where we go with this. The term “sublime” means: “Impressing the mind with a sense of grandeur or power; inspiring awe, veneration; supreme or outstanding; complete, absolute.”The term “mystery” in this context means: “The unexplained or unknown; obscure, puzzling or enigmatic.”Note that in the term “sublime” there is no connotation of the esoteric, mystical, or supernatural. I still have not made myself clear. I apologize. The Sublime Mystery does indeed fit my comprehension of the “Sublime Reality” in which you and I live. I do not perceive the “Sublime Mystery” as disconnected from “Sublime Reality.” Did you notice that the Hebrew verb “to speak” and the noun for “speech & word” were directly connected to the Hebrew nouns for “mouth & wilderness”? There is absolutely nothing mystical or supernatural about the human mouth or the wilderness. However, there is indeed a “Sublime Mystery” directly connected to the “Sublime Reality” of both “the human mouth and the natural wilderness”.Let me try to put it this way: If one is taught to look for a “paradise”, yet all one finds is a “garden”, one’s disillusionment and disappointment negates the “garden” in which one stands. If one is taught to look for a “garden”, then one looks beyond the walls that man has built, and beneath the paved foundations, pathways, and roads man has built, and there one finds “the garden” that God has planted. Wow, kind of sounds like a fortune cookie. Sorry about that. But if you discern this “figuratively & literally” you may be afforded another glimpse of what I am trying to convey. I finally put my Hebrew fonts back on my computer. I’m going to give them a try in this post. Here it goes.
‘ = speech/word. ‘ = mouth/natural-wilderness. These are all singular nouns. There is only one being referred to; one speech, one word, one mouth, one natural-wilderness. There is only one. Whereas the “supernatural” does not exist within the natural laws and phenomena of Reality; Reality in not only inundated by, but Reality's very existence depends upon the Sublime Mystery of Life. Life is The Sublime Mystery.When and if an actual, experiential “supernatural” event should ever occur then there will be no question as to its authenticity. That experiential “supernatural” event will not be merely described by the “speech, words, or mouth” of another human being, for that experiential “supernatural” event will be one with the Sublime natural-wilderness and an aspect of the “Sublime Mystery.” Do you see what I am driving at? First of all: I do not have to believe in the “Sublime Mystery.” Faith or belief is not required. Life is the “Sublime Mystery”, and my mortal experience within Life is a part of the “Sublime Mystery.”Second: I reject belief in the “words describing a supernatural event.” Should a “supernatural event” actually occur I would not have to “believe” in the event, for the event”though beyond my understanding of the real, natural world”will nonetheless be real. I do not reject any aspect of God’s natural reality.All the best,
GerEdited by autumnman, : No reason given.