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Author Topic:   The Prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel
Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 106 of 365 (471687)
06-17-2008 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Force
06-17-2008 5:52 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
Well, strictly speaking a prophecy doesn't need to be a prediction, it is simply passing on what God has told you to say. But sometimes a prophecy contains a prediction, usually a warning of what will happen if you do or don't do a particular thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Force, posted 06-17-2008 5:52 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Force, posted 06-17-2008 6:58 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 108 by IamJoseph, posted 06-17-2008 9:13 PM Brian has not replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 365 (471705)
06-17-2008 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Brian
06-17-2008 6:06 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
Brian
However, in regards to this thread we're talking about predictions more than less which is what I was referencing.

Thanks
To believe in "Force" is to believe in Love, Wisdom, Intelligence, Force, Agility, and Charm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Brian, posted 06-17-2008 6:06 PM Brian has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 108 of 365 (471736)
06-17-2008 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Brian
06-17-2008 6:06 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
quote:
But sometimes a prophecy contains a prediction, usually a warning of what will happen if you do or don't do a particular thing.
At all times a prophesy is an offer of a saving exit: do this and be saved; do that and be not saved - else there is no need for it, if it only predicts destruction. On some occasions what is advocated is not liked, and a prophet can be in danger of his life. Isaiah was thus killed by a bad king - after declaring his prophesy, which was a negative command - namely to surrender to babylon. He hid inside a tree and was cut therein. The prophesy came true - Babylon prevailed.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Brian, posted 06-17-2008 6:06 PM Brian has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 365 (471906)
06-19-2008 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by PaulK
06-17-2008 1:29 AM


Alexander's Greek Empire
PaulK writes:
That isn't true. ALexander was King of Macedonia. That was his power base. Alexander's Empire has always been considered Macedonian for that obvious reason
Here are the facts regarding Alexander's Greek World Class Empire Paulk. Your argument is a whistle in the wind and contrary to world history. There was no world class empire known as the Macedonian Empire. The Greek Empire was the prophet Daniel's foreseen third empire.
I see the link is down so you can Google "Crash Course in Jewish History #27 - The Greek Empire" and bring it up.
The classical Greek period begins as early as 7th century BCE, though we tend to be more familiar with its history in the 5th century when Greece consists of a group of constantly warring city-states, the most famous being Athens and Sparta. The Greek victory at the Marathon (490 BCE),(1) the destruction of the Persian fleet at Salamis (480 BCE) and the victory at Plataea (479 BCE) brought and end to the Persian Empire's attempts to conquer Greece. During the last three decades of the 5th century, Athens and Sparta waged a devastating war (Peloponnesian War 431-404 BCE) which culminated in the surrender of Athens. More inter-Greek fighting followed in the 4th century but later in that century all of Greece would succumb to Phillip II of Macedon, who paves way for his son, Alexander the Great, to spread the Greek civilization across the world.
Alexander, born in 356BCE, was the son of Phillip II (382-336BCE), the King of Macedonia in northern Greece.
Only the weariness of his men and his untimely death in 323BCE at the age of 32 ended the Greek conquest of the known world.
He built six Greek cities in his empire, named Alexandria. (Today the best known is the city of Alexandria in Egypt at the Nile delta.) These cities and the Greeks who settle in them brought Greek culture to the center of the oldest civilizations of Mesopotamia
Edited by Buzsaw, : Link fix

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2008 1:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 110 of 365 (471909)
06-19-2008 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
06-19-2008 12:13 AM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
quote:
Here are the facts regarding Alexander's Greek World Class Empire Paulk. Your argument is a whistle in the wind and contrary to world history. There was no world class empire known as the Macedonian Empire. The Greek Empire was the prophet Daniel's foreseen third empire.
Your link admits that Alexander WAS King of Macedon just as I said. It describes his army as Macedonian. It admits that he conquered a great Empire, It does NOT say that his Empire is never called Macedonian. Even though it's a dodgy Jewish apologetic site it doesn't even claim that Alexander's Empire and the succeeding Hellenistic states constitute Daniel's 3rd Empire.
You should know better than to try to bluff me like that. Providing a link and a quote which support what I've said and don't support your claims in any way is just not going to work.
Did you even think of googling for "Macedonian Empire" ?
If you did you would find plenty of links proving that Alexander's Empire IS called the Macedonian Empire. Here are some of the better examples from the first page of results:
Wikipedia
history ofmacedonia.org
Or this work found on google booksearch. The Macedonian Empire: The Era of Warfare Under Philip II and Alexander the Great 359-323 B.C. By James R. Ashley
From the blurb
The Macedonian Empire lasted only 36 years, beginning with Philip IIs assumption of the throne in 359 B.C. and ending with the death of his son Alexander the Great in 323 B.C.
Now, are you ready to deal with Daniel 8, which shows that the final Empire of Daniel's prophecies is Greek ?
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 06-19-2008 12:13 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4989 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 111 of 365 (471954)
06-19-2008 11:59 AM


Are the fundies now trying to erase 140 years of The Macedonian Empire?

ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 112 of 365 (471994)
06-19-2008 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by starman
06-17-2008 4:35 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
Really? I showed at least several alternate intepretations.. and none of them match yours. You have to do better than 'because I said so'

This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 642 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 113 of 365 (472000)
06-19-2008 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Brian
06-17-2008 5:23 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
I don't know the oldest date of the oldest extant manuscript, but the first reference to the Book of Danial was in the Sybline oracles in 140 bce..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Brian, posted 06-17-2008 5:23 PM Brian has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 365 (472010)
06-19-2008 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
06-19-2008 12:13 AM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
Paul, you fail to refute my link that Alexander, the Macedonian's empire was the Greek Empire and when the History books call his empire Greek they are correct. You can call it Macedonian, but the vast majority of historians consider it to be the Greek Empire and that the alleged Macedonian empire was not a world class empire. Alexander did not conquer the civilized world until his empire included all of Greece. It was the Greek empire which was Daniel's 3rd empire which was divided into four segments after his death.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 06-19-2008 12:13 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 1:36 AM Buzsaw has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 115 of 365 (472025)
06-20-2008 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Buzsaw
06-19-2008 10:50 PM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
quote:
Paul, you fail to refute my link that Alexander, the Macedonian's empire was the Greek Empire and when the History books call his empire Greek they are correct.
In case you didn't notice I did not try to refute a completely irrelevant contention that I don't even disagree with. If you actually fllow this thread I've used the term "Greek Empire" to refer to Alexander's Empire frequently.
Shall I make the point that 70 * 7 is 490 and boast when you "fail to refute" it ?
quote:
You can call it Macedonian, but the vast majority of historians consider it to be the Greek Empire and that the alleged Macedonian empire was not a world class empire.
LOTS of people call it Macedonian. In fact I've seen it called more often Macedonian than Greek. And given that we're talking about different names for the same empire just what are you trying to prove when you say that the Macedonian Empire wasn't "world class" ?
quote:
Alexander did not conquer the civilized world until his empire included all of Greece.
Which is irrelevant since the Macedonian Empire is ALL of Alexander's Empire.
quote:
It was the Greek empire which was Daniel's 3rd empire which was divided into four segments after his death.
The 3rd Empire of the statue isn't divided. The 4th Empire is. That is one of the lines of evidence identifying the 4th Empire as the Greek Empire.
So if you've quite finished raising foolish and erroneous quibbles can we discuss the evidence of Daniel 8 ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 06-19-2008 10:50 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 06-20-2008 9:51 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 06-20-2008 11:25 AM PaulK has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 365 (472085)
06-20-2008 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
06-20-2008 1:36 AM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
PaulK writes:
Which is irrelevant since the Macedonian Empire is ALL of Alexander's Empire.
But Alexander's empire did not become world class until he conquered the whole world. Macedonia was considered part of Greece, had Greek dialect language, Greek gods and Greek culture. It was totally Helenistic in the ancient times of Daniel.
PaulK writes:
The 3rd Empire of the statue isn't divided. The 4th Empire is. That is one of the lines of evidence identifying the 4th Empire as the Greek Empire.
This is why one must apply all the info from all of the visions of Daniel to understand the prophecy of Daniel and the empires. Go to Daniel 7 where the same empires of Daniels image are depicted as beasts. The third beast is a leopard which had on it's back four wings and it had four heads. This is the only mention of one empire having the factor of four in all of his visions. The fourth beast has the factor of ten which is 10 kings, being the ten toes of the first vistion and the 10 horns of the last. The 4th empire of Daniel has the division of 10 whereas the 3rd has the division of 4.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 1:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 2:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 365 (472096)
06-20-2008 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
06-20-2008 1:36 AM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
here are some facts relative to the Greek/Macedonian argument as to whether Daniel's third empire of Alexander the Great was an alleged Macedonian empire.
My apologies for the length of the quoted segment, but when one debates with Paul, one must post every jot and tittle.
1. The New York Times advertisement of 4/26/92 says, "4000 years of Greek History, 4000 years of Greek Culture, 4000 years of Greek Heritage... Skopje's government seeking recognition as the 'Republic of Macedonia' perpetuates a fraud." Pamphlets distributed in churches stated, "Macedonia has been Greek for 3,000 years. In ancient times Macedonians spoke Greek, worshipped Greek gods, expressed their creativity through Greek art and maintained a refined Greek culture ... all archaeological discoveries continue to unearth more information attesting to the indisputable Greekness of Macedonia."
2. "Out of the blue, in 1944, the Yugoslav communist leader, Tito, wishing to weaken Serbia on the one hand, and set the footing for future territorial claims against Greece on the other, schemingly gave South Serbia the Greek name 'Macedonia' and re-wrote the 'history' books to declare that ancient Macedonia was Slavic and that these people were descendants of Alexander the Great."
3. "The existence of a 'Slav' Macedonia could never be, and indeed, has never been supported either by historical data, or by ethnographic maps, or by statistics, or by some census, or by archaeological finds, or by even an obscure mention of such a nation from antiquity till today."
4. "Macedonia has been the name of Northern Greece for more than 3000 years. The Greek region ... has one of the most homogeneous populations in the world (98.5% Greek). Its population speaks Greek, feels Greek, is Greek."
5. "An independent 'Macedonia' would monopolize the name at the expense of the real Macedonians who are twice the number of the Slavs. The use and abuse of the name would cause widespread confusion as is already apparent."
6. "Macedonia is an indispensable part of Greece's historical heritage it cannot identify, in an ethnic sense another nation."
7. "The Skopje 'language' is undeniably Slavic."
8. "The Slavs did not set foot in the Balkans until 1000 years after Alexander the Great."
9. "The name 'Macedonia (which is etymologically Greek) was in use at least 1500 years before the arrival of the first Slavs."
10. "Every known Macedonian town, river and person had a Greek name - Philip (lover of horse), Alexander (protector of men), Archelaus (leader of people), Amyntas (defender), Ptolemy (warlike), Bucephalus (ox-head)."
11. "The Old Testament (Daniel Ch. 8) and the New Testament (Acts Ch. 17) confirm the Greekness of Alexander and the Macedonians."
12. "It was the Greek language that was taken to Asia (Bible written in Greek) and cities with Greek names and institutions that were founded."
13. "There are 60,000 archaeological finds that confirm that the Macedonians were Greek in language, culture and religion."
14. "The home of the Greek gods was in Macedonia. Is it feasible that a people would worship its national gods in a foreign country?"
15. " Yugoslav Macedonia is not even geographically in the territory occupied by ancient Macedonia."
16. "Independent sources in this century (Turkish Census of 1904 when the region was part of the Ottoman Empire, League of Nations Census of 1926 and declassified British Archives 1934) make no mention of any ethnic Macedonians whatsoever until the Communists came along with their preposterous concoction to dominate the Balkans."
17. "By appropriating and maintaining the name 'Macedonia' the Slavs are laying the foundations for future territorial claims against the region of the same name in Greece. They have clearly expressed this intention by:- (a) plagiarizing and blatantly falsifying history (b)... continuously using maps and emblems that include northern Greece as part of 'Macedonia~ and (c) refusing to comply with the directive of the European Community in its declaration of 16th December 1991 to (i) cease hostile propaganda; (ii) commit itself to guarantees that it has no territorial claims and (iii) not use a denomination (Macedonia) which implies expansionist intentions."

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 1:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 2:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied

starman
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 365 (472111)
06-20-2008 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by PaulK
06-19-2008 1:31 AM


Re: Alexander's Greek Empire
Would it make you feel better if we simply referred to it as the 'Greco Macedonian Empire'?? Why quibble?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by PaulK, posted 06-19-2008 1:31 AM PaulK has not replied

starman
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 365 (472113)
06-20-2008 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Brian
06-17-2008 5:38 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
Actually, we can take it from Gabriel himself that you are out to lunch there.
" 16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."
(Dan 8)
Now, do we need to really get into Alexander the Great, and whose kingdom this goat was?? Honestly, why not debate in good faith??
There are four beasts, and they are all SPELLED out, by no less than archangels in a few cases, except for the name of the fourth one. There is a reason for that. Do you really think the last kingdom that springs out of the old Roman Empire will be called 'Rome'??!! No. God is a clever Guy. Way ahead of you here.
Edited by starman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Brian, posted 06-17-2008 5:38 PM Brian has not replied

starman
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 365 (472115)
06-20-2008 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by PaulK
06-17-2008 5:18 PM


Re: 70 weeks of Daniel
quote:
If you'd been paying attention you'd know that I've already told you.
The first messiah (Cyrus) comes after the SEVEN weeks. This is the reading in the Masoretic text.
The 'first' Messiah?? What, how many do you think there were? And he was a heathen king to boot? Very funny. Get serious.
Now, there was so many weeks for the wall, and etc to be built. I think it was 7, or 49 years. Then we have 62 weeks till the Messiah, and also the destruction of the city. Forget the last week for now. So, try to fit your wanna be Messiahs into that!!
As for some guy that did stop the sacrifice, there we get into an area where history blends with the future, and the question is where does the one stop, and the ultimate fulfillment start?!!
That is not needed for the pagan forum.
The raw fact that the temple and city were destroyed AFTER Messsiah was cut off, and that the kingdoms of this world were all named in advance, confirmed by the mouth of an archangel, is all you need to deal with. Pronto. Oh, and that Gabriel was also the guy that the first Christmas had to do with!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2008 5:18 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 06-20-2008 2:35 PM starman has replied
 Message 124 by Force, posted 06-20-2008 4:29 PM starman has not replied

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