The Prophecy of the 70 weeks of Daniel

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Wrong. I do not extend the Greco-Macedonioan Empire forward. Instead I identify Daniel's End Times as being at a past time when that Empire historically existed - and Daniel 8 clearly states that that Empire is still extant in Daniel's End Times.

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Besides ignoring the place of the Greco Macedonian empire, and it's demise, and the others kingdom, and ten parts that come from it in the end days, if you want to keep all Dan 8 as fulfilled, please show me the stars that were cast down?? Are they hiding somewhere? Did no one see them?? What were they real little stars??I seem to forget where Alexander stomped on stars!?Dan 8: 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.Now I have heard a case for all this being in the days of Greece, and maybe that is right. I have heard others claim it jumped into the final time, when, of course we know stars will fall, according to other parts of the bible.Now, in chapter 8, it seems to fine tune this for us, as to who we are talking about here, and WHEN!" 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand"So, out of the four parts of what Greece got divided into, is where the fierce king shall come from.. When?? Not before Greece was divided, before it got taken over by the next kingdom, but AFTER, showing that it was not from the ruling time of Greece, as you seem to think!Then, we need to look at the very end time of their existence, the latter time as Dan 8 clearly says!!22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand"Broken without hand?? That sounds a lot like the kingdom of Jesus that was cut out without hands, in other words, without MAN's hands.Again, context. You can't just have a fanatic's field day taking things out of context. Sorry.If the latter time of the parts of Greece was long ago, why are they still here???

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Besides ignoring the place of the Greco Macedonian empire, and it's demise, and the others kingdom, and ten parts that come from it in the end days, if you want to keep all Dan 8 as fulfilled, please show me the stars that were cast down?? Are they hiding somewhere? Did no one see them?? What were they real little stars??

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Aside from misrepresenting me AND the BIble do you have a case ?I do NOT ignore the place of the Greco-Maedonian Empire or it's demise.Daniel does not have any kingdom divided into "ten parts".The stars falling to earth in Daniel 8 are part of the vision and therefore should not be assumed to be literal.

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So, out of the four parts of what Greece got divided into, is where the fierce king shall come from.. When?? Not before Greece was divided, before it got taken over by the next kingdom, but AFTER, showing that it was not from the ruling time of Greece, as you seem to think!

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If you knew your history you would know that after Alexander's death his Empire was divided among his generals. That is the division referred to. It is those Kingdoms that Daniel 8 refers to, not some other later Kingdom.

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Broken without hand?? That sounds a lot like the kingdom of Jesus that was cut out without hands, in other words, without MAN's hands.

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Again, context. You can't just have a fanatic's field day taking things out of context. Sorry.

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I'm not taking anything out of context.We all know that the End Times didn't come. The question is when Daniel believed that they would come. And Daniel 8 clearly answers that question - and shows that Daniel was wrong. That is simple, honest, fact.

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If the latter time of the parts of Greece was long ago, why are they still here???

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The Hellenistic Kingdoms are long gone. The last of them, Ptolemaic Egypt, fell to Rome in 30BC. They are not "still here" any more than the Babylonian or Persian Empires are "still here".

You were suspended for posting the same message many times in this thread.If while suspended you hover your mouse over the suspension icon (), it will give the reason for the suspension, or a link to a message explaining the reason.Also, if you read this thread you'll see that I replied to the last of your many duplicate messages in Message 235. Adminnemooseus suspects technical problems as the cause, and if that was the case then I apologize for the suspension.Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

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Daniel does not have any kingdom divided into "ten parts".

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The stars falling to earth in Daniel 8 are part of the vision and therefore should not be assumed to be literal.

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The ten divisions, or kings are ten parts, and they will give their power to the beast. Most people have ten toes, and the image that represented the kingdoms on earth till the Messiah takes over were ten toes. Count em.Not like each toe runs around by itself or anything, no, they are all on the feet, and control will be from the Antichrist.As for stars, I am afraid that you are not in a position to dictate what one should assume stars mean. While it is true that it might have meant angels, or some such, in the past, it is also possible, I would think, that an ultimate application may apply to the latter days.So, it would be again, in context, and with a look at the rest of the book, not just what you declare, for some unknown reason.

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If you knew your history you would know that after Alexander's death his Empire was divided among his generals. That is the division referred to. It is those Kingdoms that Daniel 8 refers to, not some other later Kingdom.

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Not sure what else you think I was talking about? But say, if Egypt was an area that was one of them, you will notice it still exists today in some form. So the areas that the kingdom were divided into, - out of one of them, will rise this important leader of the last days of the rule of man on earth.In the latter time of these places!!! That cannot be said of Egypt at the month or year that it was divided up!!! Obviously, because it is still here.

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We all know that the End Times didn't come. The question is when Daniel believed that they would come. And Daniel 8 clearly answers that question - and shows that Daniel was wrong. That is simple, honest, fact.

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Why would it come, till it comes?? What, you would like prophesy if the final leader lived in Greece thousands of years ago, or in Europe in the dark ages, or in Britain in the Victorian era?No, the only time it can come, is when the time actually is at it's end. No need to worry about that, if we are still here, be sure it ain't come yet!But also note that certain things are now in place, that were not in centuries past. How could Russia invade Israel, if there was no Israel there to invade, for example. (Not that God asked it to be there, when He gets them together, we will know it) Europe is in a stronger position to be getting together, or parts of it, as well.And of course there are many other things that indicate that the wrap up phase could kick easily, when the time is right.Now, of course, within the ancient bits that were fulfilled, we also have latter times of certain kingdoms, so we need to look at the context of any particular verse.

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The Hellenistic Kingdoms are long gone. The last of them, Ptolemaic Egypt, fell to Rome in 30BC. They are not "still here" any more than the Babylonian or Persian Empires are "still here".

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The kingdoms are of course by and large still here. Greece is still here even! Not as some world leader, nor should they be. They were to be defeated as that, and another one take over, quite clearly.

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The ten divisions, or kings are ten parts, and they will give their power to the beast. Most people have ten toes, and the image that represented the kingdoms on earth till the Messiah takes over were ten toes. Count em.

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Daniel never refers to a Kingdom divided into ten parts or talks of "The Messiah" taking over.Try and stick to what the text actually says.

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As for stars, I am afraid that you are not in a position to dictate what one should assume stars mean. While it is true that it might have meant angels, or some such, in the past, it is also possible, I would think, that an ultimate application may apply to the latter days

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I'm not dictating what they MEAN I'm just pointing out that it would be very silly to take it literally.

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So, it would be again, in context, and with a look at the rest of the book, not just what you declare, for some unknown reason.

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The context would include the fact that the relevant verse is part of the description of a symbolic vision.

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Not sure what else you think I was talking about?

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You were insisting that the division of the Greek Empire had something to do with it being taken over by another Kingdom. Obviously that was wrong.

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But say, if Egypt was an area that was one of them, you will notice it still exists today in some form.

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In the same way that Persia is still around "in some form". It doesn't change the fact that the Ptolemaic Kingdom ended in 30 BC. Modern Egypt can't be said to be the Ptolemaic state.

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So the areas that the kingdom were divided into, - out of one of them, will rise this important leader of the last days of the rule of man on earth.

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Unfortunately for you, Daniel explicitly refers to the latter days of the Greek Kingdoms, not some other states that might eventually arise in the remote future. Your reading is simply not viable.

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Why would it come, till it comes??

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That isn't relevant. The question is when did Daniel say that the End Times would come.
Chapter 8 tells us that it should be in "the latter days" of the Hellenistic Kingdoms. Other prophecies narrow the time down to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabean revolt.

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What, you would like prophesy if the final leader lived in Greece thousands of years ago, or in Europe in the dark ages, or in Britain in the Victorian era?

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It's not a case of liking it. It's a case of understanding what it says.

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No, the only time it can come, is when the time actually is at it's end. No need to worry about that, if we are still here, be sure it ain't come yet!

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I'm certainly not worried by Daniel's predicted End Times - they didn't happen, and the time they were supposed to happen is long past. Obviously there's nothing to worry about there.

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But also note that certain things are now in place, that were not in centuries past. How could Russia invade Israel, if there was no Israel there to invade, for example. (Not that God asked it to be there, when He gets them together, we will know it) Europe is in a stronger position to be getting together, or parts of it, as well.And of course there are many other things that indicate that the wrap up phase could kick easily, when the time is right.

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How can the ruler of a Hellenistic Kingdom attack Israel when the Hellenistic Kingdoms are gone. The necessary conditions are NOT in place, and haven't been for over 2000 years.

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The kingdoms are of course by and large still here. Greece is still here even! Not as some world leader, nor should they be. They were to be defeated as that, and another one take over, quite clearly.

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No, they're not. Not one of them still exists. At most you might find a modern state with the same time. But the Hellenistic Kingdoms are utterly gone.

starman, Greece ceased to be a kingdom in 1974.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

But Greece is still here. It doesn't matter what they call it.

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Daniel never refers to a Kingdom divided into ten parts or talks of "The Messiah" taking over.

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Try and stick to what the text actually says.

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Of course he does, right in Dan 2. The fourth kingdom, the legs of iron, when it is destroyed by the rock of ages, is in the form of ten toes. No one else could destroy the kingdoms of the world, and rule forever and ever. Elementary. It is also cross referenced by the rest of the bible, that God will rule here one day.

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I'm not dictating what they MEAN I'm just pointing out that it would be very silly to take it literally.

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Since stars also refer to heavenly beings, and other things, we don't need to agree and fine tune that. This alone likely does not place the event strictly in either the past, or the future. It could refer to both.

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The context would include the fact that the relevant verse is part of the description of a symbolic vision.

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A series of visions, in a book, surrounded by even more visions, all of which need to be considered. In the case of the latter days of the four divisions of Greece, they are still here. The context is that it gives the area, or possible areas we can know that the last leader will come from. Not that Greece, or the areas that the generals divided up will be here as some world kingdom. That is an impossibility, since it clearly tells that another kingdom will follow. Knowing this irrefutable fact, then, the seventy weeks cannot be misunderstood, as you try to do.

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Unfortunately for you, Daniel explicitly refers to the latter days of the Greek Kingdoms, not some other states that might eventually arise in the remote future. Your reading is simply not viable.

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Explicitly?
So, when was the explicit end of Egypt? Or Syria?But, even if one could somehow show that this were the case, and that kingdoms had to refer only to the phase where they were freshly divided, we still have the bridging of the gap by the local fulfillment.We can look at details, if you like."II. THE EGYPTIAN-SYRIAN CONFLICTA. THE CONFLICT WILL BEGIN...
1. The "king of the South" will gain in strength - Dan 11:5a
a. This king is Ptolemy I
b. Who ruled Egypt (306-284 B.C.)
2. As well as "one of his princes", who will gain power over the
other - Dan 11:5b
a. This is thought to refer to one of Alexander's princes
(generals)
b. In which case it is Seleucus I, who ruled Syria (312-280
B.C.)
-- Caught in the middle between Syria and Egypt, Israel will bear
the brunt of much of the conflict between these two empiresB. THERE WILL BE A FAILED ALLIANCE...
1. The "daughter of the South" will go to the "king of the North"
- Dan 11:6a
a. The event occurred in the reigns of Ptolemy Philadelphus
(284-246 B.C.) and Antiochus Theus (261-246 B.C.)
b. Berenice, daughter of Ptolemy Philadelphus was given to
Antiochus, upon the condition that Antiochus divorce his
wife Laodice
c. Hoping to make peace between Egypt and Syria
2. But the "daughter of the South" will not retain her authority
- Dan 11:6b
a. Two years after the marriage, Berenice's father (Ptolemy
Philadelphus) died
b. Antiochus put her away and restored his first wife Laodice
c. Laodice killed Antiochus, and Berenice fled, but was later
put to death along with her children and attendantsC. THE SOUTH WILL RISE IN ANGER...
1. A "branch of her roots" will come with an army - Dan 11:7
a. This was Berenice's brother, Ptolemy Euregetes (246-221
B.C.)
b. Who failing to save his sister, attacked Syria to avenge
her death
2. The avenger (Ptolemy Euregetes) will succeed - Dan 11:8
a. Euregetes took their gods, princes, and precious articles
to Egypt
b. Euregetes ruled longer than the next Seleucid king,
Seleucid Callinicus (246-226 B.C.)D. THE CONFLICT WILL ACCELERATE...
1. The "king of the North" (Seleucid Callinicus) will try to
invade the kingdom of the South - Dan 11:9-10
a. He does not succeed, though his sons (Seleucid Ceraunus and
Antiochus the Great) shall stir up strife
b. One son in particular, Antiochus the Great (225-187 B.C.),
does succeed in overwhelming Egypt (actually, regain Syrian
land taken by Egypt)
2. The "king of the South" will respond in rage - Dan 11:11-13
a. This king of Egypt is Ptolemy Philopator (221-204 B.C.)
b. Angry that Antiochus the Great regained control of Syrian
territory, he gathered a great army and defeated Antiochus
at Raphia
c. His victory was short-lived, for Antiochus returned with a
better-equipped army in 203 B.C.
3. Others will contribute to the war against the South - Dan
11:14
a. This included Philip, king of Macedon, who aligned with
Antiochus
b. Also some violent Jews, prompted by what they perceived as
the fulfillment of the vision, but they shall fall
4. The "king of the North" shall prevail against the South, but
then fall - Dan 11:15-19
a. Again, this is Antiochus the Great
1) The forces of the South were not able to resist him
2) He stood in the "Glorious Land" (Israel) with
destruction in his power
b. He tried to strengthen his kingdom by giving his daughter
in marriage
1) His daughter Cleopatra, given to Ptolemy Epiphanes (204-
180 B.C.)
2) But she came to favor the purposes of her husband rather
than her father
c. Antiochus then turned his attention to the coastlands
(Mediterranean)
1) Making war with the Romans
2) But was defeated by Scipio Asiaticus, a Roman military
leader
d. Defeated by the Romans, Antiochus the Great returned home
and died soon after"
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/dan/dan_11.htmSomewhere, however, when talking about this, it jumps far into the end of man's rule on earth, and directly starts talking about the ultimate fulfillment. Both are true, and valid. So we can accept your points, and it changes nothing at all. No need to quibble.The fine tuning comes where we pinpoint where the time jump takes place. This is a pattern found elsewhere in the bible as well.But any way you shake it, the last week of Daniel could not have been in the time of Greece! Trying to stick it there is absurd, and ignorant of context.You seem to be missing the all important bridge from local fulfillment to ultimate fulfillment. That means you miss everything. The ultimate fulfillment is utterly impossible in the past only.

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How can the ruler of a Hellenistic Kingdom attack Israel when the Hellenistic Kingdoms are gone. The necessary conditions are NOT in place, and haven't been for over 2000 years.

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That isn't relevant. The question is when did Daniel say that the End Times would come.
Chapter 8 tells us that it should be in "the latter days" of the Hellenistic Kingdoms. Other prophecies narrow the time down to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabean revolt.

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No, all that might be narrowed down is a local fulfillment. See, in my opinion, some verses have a double bang for the buck. They refer to both. For example, these verses possibly are not limited to the old wicked king." 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. "
Seems to make more sense that this applies to both, especially since it ENDS up exclusively about the end of days wicked guy!!!You trying to lock everything in to the past, just is not an option.9: 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;And, we still have the already fulfilled bits, of the Messiah coming after the certain years!! Then, we had Titus come in and do you know what. No other arrangement of the years works at all. Nothing else is close, or makes any sense, or is at all solid, and fits with the rest of history, and the bible.Edited by starman, : No reason given.

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Of course he does, right in Dan 2. The fourth kingdom, the legs of iron, when it is destroyed by the rock of ages, is in the form of ten toes. No one else could destroy the kingdoms of the world, and rule forever and ever. Elementary. It is also cross referenced by the rest of the bible, that God will rule here one day.

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In other words he doesn't. All you have is a reference to the toes which you assume refers to ten separate kingdoms. But it's just an assumption. And you don't even have anything you can call a reference to the Messiah.So try really hard to stick to what the text actually says, will you ?

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Since stars also refer to heavenly beings, and other things, we don't need to agree and fine tune that. This alone likely does not place the event strictly in either the past, or the future. It could refer to both.

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You're the one who brought it up, treating it as if it were literal.

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A series of visions, in a book, surrounded by even more visions, all of which need to be considered.

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Yes, but you have to actually do it. Not say you've done it, while ignoring the bits you don't like.

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In the case of the latter days of the four divisions of Greece, they are still here. The context is that it gives the area, or possible areas we can know that the last leader will come from.

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No. That is not context. That is something you made up. The actual context shows Daniel consistently dealing with political entities, not geography. The actual text deals with political entities not geography. And the political entities in question are all gone.

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ot that Greece, or the areas that the generals divided up will be here as some world kingdom. That is an impossibility, since it clearly tells that another kingdom will follow. Knowing this irrefutable fact, then, the seventy weeks cannot be misunderstood, as you try to do.

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So what you are saying is that if you twist Daniel 8 by inventing a fake "context", use your preferred interpretation you'll come up with the "correct" interpretation of the 70 weeks - by which you mean the interpretation that you like despite the fact that you have to distort that too, to try to make it fit.Or we can take Daniel 8 at its word. Use a different interpretation of the statue and the four beasts - one that actually fits the real context. And get an interpretations of the 70 weeks that actually works.That makes it rather clear who is "trying to misunderstand" the 70 weeks.

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Explicitly?

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Yes, 8:22-23

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So, when was the explicit end of Egypt? Or Syria?

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I didn't say that Daniel referred to either of those explicitly. Their end is implicit in that the Kingdom of God will replace them.

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Somewhere, however, when talking about this, it jumps far into the end of man's rule on earth, and directly starts talking about the ultimate fulfillment.

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By which you mean that you have to invent a jump, which isn't there in the text.

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The fine tuning comes where we pinpoint where the time jump takes place. This is a pattern found elsewhere in the bible as well.

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I think you mean that inventing time jumps is a pattern followed by apologists, who want the Bible to say something other than it does.

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But any way you shake it, the last week of Daniel could not have been in the time of Greece! Trying to stick it there is absurd, and ignorant of context.

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The real context includes Daniel 8 which clearly places the End TImes in the Greek Empire.
Your "context" is simply your own invention, contrary to the actual text.The evidence shows that the events of the 70th week match real historical events in that period.The 70 weeks do not fit into your view - which is why you have to arbitrarily invent a massive gap between the 69th and 70th week. A gap which has no support in the text.I am not trying to stick the 70th week into the time of the Hellenistic Kingdoms - the author of Daniel firmly put it there. As I have shown.

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In other words he doesn't. All you have is a reference to the toes which you assume refers to ten separate kingdoms. But it's just an assumption. And you don't even have anything you can call a reference to the Messiah.

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So try really hard to stick to what the text actually says, will you ?

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False!Da 7:24 - And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.Re 17:12 - And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.The ten kings of the end are well known. Your attempts to ignore and deny the rest of the bible are weak, and futile.

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You're the one who brought it up, treating it as if it were literal.

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True, I was trying to find some bit that could only be fulfilled in the very end. That wasn't it, that I am aware of.

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Yes, but you have to actually do it. Not say you've done it, while ignoring the bits you don't like.

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In pointing out that it is more than one vision, I ignore nothing. Any unclear bit on one vision is easily cleared up. with context, and balance. Cherry picking, and clinging to pet theories is all you have been doing.

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No. That is not context. That is something you made up. The actual context shows Daniel consistently dealing with political entities, not geography. The actual text deals with political entities not geography. And the political entities in question are all gone.

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The end time leader is a political entity. Focus.

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So what you are saying is that if you twist Daniel 8 by inventing a fake "context", use your preferred interpretation you'll come up with the "correct" interpretation of the 70 weeks - by which you mean the interpretation that you like despite the fact that you have to distort that too, to try to make it fit.

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Some have admitted here that the weeks are years. No start from any decree gets the Messiah that far off, does it?? That is your problem. And the destruction of the temple after the decree can't be fit into any other take. How many times can a temple be utterly destroyed, from point a to point b!!??

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I didn't say that Daniel referred to either of those explicitly. Their end is implicit in that the Kingdom of God will replace them.

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Of course His kingdom will replace all others. Nothing in the bible says that was in the days of Greece, of course! Ridiculous.

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Or we can take Daniel 8 at its word. Use a different interpretation of the statue and the four beasts - one that actually fits the real context. And get an interpretations of the 70 weeks that actually works.

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NO, you can't do anything of the sort, actually! The image represented kingdoms, in an order, right up till God takes over the earth.Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken... 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.The visions all agree, and the kingdoms are identifiable. No way round it.

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By which you mean that you have to invent a jump, which isn't there in the text.

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If it talks in a certain place about the very end, yes, it has spanned time, from the last bit mentioned, obviously. And there is no way on earth to get around the clear fact, that at some point, in chapters that covered history, it does just that, start talking about the very end.For example, again in Daniel, we have chap 7 doing this. There is no way possible to attribute these things to any king of the past. Period. That is not an option.17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions F56 shall serve and obey himIt SPELLS out that it is talking about kingdoms, and that the end result is God, and His people ruling forever. That you cannot fit into history. Neither can you say that any chapter cannot launch from the past to the future, in covering certain things. Your attempt to limit chapters to the past is a crass attempt to try to make, by (rest of the bible) ignorant cherry picking, God look dumb. Not sure why you would bother, it can't work, in the light of day. [quote] If a chapter clearly ends up talking about something in the future that cannot have been fulfilled by any stretch of the imagination in the past, you cannot deny it is talking about the future!!! Period. Since this happens quite a bit, you have no point.

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The real context includes Daniel 8 which clearly places the End TImes in the Greek Empire.
Your "context" is simply your own invention, contrary to the actual text.

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How can you get that God takes over in ancient Greece from this???Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

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The evidence shows that the events of the 70th week match real historical events in that period.

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Not all of them, only the stuff that is supposed to take place. Can you tell us how you think these things were all fulfilled somewhere in history!!!!???Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.Some everlasting righteousness we have now!!!! Get serious.

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False!
Da 7:24 - And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

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Which are NOT said to be rulers of separate kingdoms. Indeed the best historical fit has them as the successive rulers of a single kingdom. This issue has been dealt with.As I said TRY to stick to what the text actually says.In addition it is invalid to use Revelation to override what the Book of Daniel actually says. The Book of Daniel clearly places its events in time. The Revelation - written at least 250 years AFTER that time - places its events still further ahead.

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True, I was trying to find some bit that could only be fulfilled in the very end. That wasn't it, that I am aware of.

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In other words you ignored the context while looikig for a bad argument.

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In pointing out that it is more than one vision, I ignore nothing. Any unclear bit on one vision is easily cleared up. with context, and balance. Cherry picking, and clinging to pet theories is all you have been doing.

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You see ? Your tactics are so bad that you falsely accuse me of using them.I have been promoting an integrated understanding using everything we can find. Chapter 8 is key, but chapters 9 and 11 provide strong support. In contrast you have to invnet massive jumps in time to cling to YOUR pet theories. I don't need anything like that.

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The end time leader is a political entity. Focus.

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The end time leader is RULER of a political entity. And presumably "focus" means that we should ignore the fact that your "context" is a fabrication that ignores the real context.

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Some have admitted here that the weeks are years. No start from any decree gets the Messiah that far off, does it?? That is your problem. And the destruction of the temple after the decree can't be fit into any other take. How many times can a temple be utterly destroyed, from point a to point b!!??

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Everyone agrees that the "weeks" are periods of seven years and nobody has disputed that in the course of this thread. Characterising that as an "admission" is pure spin. And there are certainly possible start dates that place the end date quite far from your candidate for Daniel's second messiah.The destruction is not a problem for me, because clearly the Temple is still working afterwards. Therefore it refers to damage that can be put right, at least to the extent of allowing Temple business to continue, within a short period. (That's using the context again.) We do have a successful raid of the Temple, with the treasures looted at exactly the right time. Thus the problem is answered - as you already knew.

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Of course His kingdom will replace all others. Nothing in the bible says that was in the days of Greece, of course! Ridiculous.

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Daniel 8 and Daniel 11-12 DO say exactly that. So you are calling the Bible ridiculous.

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NO, you can't do anything of the sort, actually! The image represented kingdoms, in an order, right up till God takes over the earth.

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Of course we can. All we have to do is to choose a different breakdown which actually fits in with the clear statements of Daniel 8.

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The visions all agree, and the kingdoms are identifiable. No way round it.

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Except for the first, Babylon, none of the kingdoms can be unambiguously identified.
Therefore we use the wider context, which clearly identifies the final kingdom as Greek.

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If it talks in a certain place about the very end, yes, it has spanned time, from the last bit mentioned, obviously. And there is no way on earth to get around the clear fact, that at some point, in chapters that covered history, it does just that, start talking about the very end.

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Indeed. And there is no reasonable way to get around the fact that those End Times are placed in our distant past. That is why you invent massive time jumps rather than accept what the text actually says.

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For example, again in Daniel, we have chap 7 doing this. There is no way possible to attribute these things to any king of the past. Period. That is not an option.

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Well that is odd since it is a description of Antichus IV Epiphanes !

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It SPELLS out that it is talking about kingdoms, and that the end result is God, and His people ruling forever. That you cannot fit into history

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We have a very basic problem here. You assume that I have to try to twist the prophecy so that it comes out "right". but I don't. I am quite happy pointing out the fact that it failed.

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If a chapter clearly ends up talking about something in the future that cannot have been fulfilled by any stretch of the imagination in the past, you cannot deny it is talking about the future!!! Period. Since this happens quite a bit, you have no point.

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I can't and don't deny that the author was talking abut HIS future. However, I clearly should not assume that the author must have been talking about our future just because his prediction was wrong !

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How can you get that God takes over in ancient Greece from this???

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By reading it. It SAYS that the ruler referred to is the ruler of one of the Hellenistic Kingdoms. I even quoted the relevant portion in my last post !

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Not all of them, only the stuff that is supposed to take place. Can you tell us how you think these things were all fulfilled somewhere in history!!!!???

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Everything apart from the end happened. That would be a pretty big coincidence. Not a little coincidence like being able to find a start date that gives you a near miss on only one event. And with all the other evidence against it referring to our future., clearly it is the best possibility available.

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an 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

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Some everlasting righteousness we have now!!!! Get serious.

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And that is an equal "problem" for any of the possible start dates.You only have 490 years.However you read it the prophecy failed.Big deal. Lots of End-of-the-World prophecies fail.That is not a problem.

Is there a single prophecy (prediction) in the Bible that didn't fail?

starman,I was under the impression that the prophecy referred to kingdoms, in which case it does matter. No king means no kingdom.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

No! get with the times, man. We are in the times when miry clay is in with the iron. No king required there at all, in fact, the weakness of the clay should clue one in. I do not expect any of the ten kingdoms, or toes of the end to have a king. Maybe a president, or prime minister, or some such thing. Such is the days of the clays.

starman, Then the prophecy fails.It clearly states kingdoms are involved. Not social collectives, not democracies, not republics. If kingdoms are involved then there are kings.If you are forced to interpret something as specific as "kingdom" as to be "not kingdom" then you are capable of any dishonest twisting of words to suit your needs. Your standard of prophecy validation is so loose & vague as to allow any prophecy to be fulfilled, because when the prophecy says white, you allow yourself to interpret it as any-colour-other-than-white, & hey presto! Prophecy fulfilled!Useless, utterly useless.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't