The Big C: Circumcision

For what it's worth, I don't think it's ethical to cut off the foreskin of an infant just for looks.

quote:

---

It's not a matter of having them look like me, but rather having them look normal to their sexual partners.

---

Do you really want your sons to be with a woman who would reject them because they have a foreskin? You must expect them to be with some pretty shallow women. Even worse than that, you seem to want them to strive to please such shallow women.

quote:

---

I don't care if they look like me. I care that they look like all the other guys in the locker room. Perhaps if you were not a boy in high school you might have difficulty understanding.

---

I don't find this a terribly compelling argument, Crashfrog.By this logic, we should perform surgery on or "treat" all children who look "different". Liposuction on the fat ones, breast augmentation for the flat-chested/overdeveloped ones, hormones for the short boys/tall girls, nose jobs for the Jewish and Italian kids, eyelid jobs for the Asian kids, etc. etc...[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-05-2003]

quote:

---

You must expect them to be with some pretty shallow women.

---

quote:

---

Yeah, I'd say that largely describes girls age 16-25. Human beings in general, perhaps.

---

Maybe that describes people that you chose to hang around with during that time, but perhaps I had better taste in friends than you.I saw through shallow people a mile away and didn't give them the time of day. I still don't understand why you want to encourage your children to conform to everyone else's idea of what's "normal".

quote:

---

By this logic, we should perform surgery on or "treat" all children who look "different". Liposuction on the fat ones, breast augmentation for the flat-chested/overdeveloped ones, hormones for the short boys/tall girls, nose jobs for the Jewish and Italian kids, eyelid jobs for the Asian kids, etc. etc...

---

quote:

---

Plenty of teenagers do those things with their parents blessing anyway.

---

Um, they don't "fix" asian childrens' eyelids when they are infants, though, do they?The choice to have these unfortunate surgeries to look more WASP is up to the individual getting the surgery, isn't it?

quote:

---

You don't seem critical of braces to straighten only barely-crooked teeth, or parent-sanctioned tanning, or even girls stuffing their bras.

---

Just because I didn't mention them doesn't mean I approve.Remember, we are talking about surgery.Would you approve of some parents of a infant who's eyelids looked "too asian" getting cosmetic surgery to make them appear more "normal" in America?

quote:

---

Despite that these are as socially-driven "corrections" as anything listed above.

---

Non-surgical, temporary "enhancements", sone with the free informed choice of the enhanced, is entirely different from circumcision of infants.

quote:

---

Quite frankly, if you're odd or different in high school, you get dumped with shit that lasts you most of your life. I went through that. I imagine that most of us here did, too.

---

Yep, that's true.

quote:

---

Why would I wish that on my kid? Why would I burden a son with one more reason to get picked on in an already stressful evironment?

---

Because you can't do anything about his getting picked on. It's going to happen over a bunch of other things.You seem to want to teach him that most women are shallow, but he has to conform to their shallow expectations anyway.Wouldn't it be better to teach him to recognize quality in people and to avoid those who are shallow and concerned with the superficial?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-06-2003]

quote:

---

But for as long as it's necessary to my sons to fit in to our sexual culture, I think it's wrong to prevent parents from opting for the procedure. To do so sentences them to great social ostracism, all to preserve a flap of skin. Doesn't sound like a fair trade to me.

---

I just don't get where you think that "great social ostracism" would occur.I, personally, wouldn't have cared a bit if any of my boyfriends were uncircumsized or not. I have honestly never heard a single negative comment about it from any of my girlfriends over the years, and in fact have only heard positive or neutral comments.If it's sexual partners you are worried about, you should be glad they get rejected by a woman so shallow that she cares if he is uncircumsized or not.Here's an interesting exercise:Replace "uncircumsized" in that sentence with one or more of the following words or phrases:rich
on the football team
tall
drives a fancy car
is a certain religion
is in a certain ethnic group

quote:

---

I don't object to a token snip of the labia in order to fit the girl into the sexual culture.

---

I most certainly do object to anyone thinking they have the right to mess about with my nether regions without getting my approval!Tell me, crashfrog, what do you think of footbinding?

quote:

---

Well, I think you find that when it's already happened to you, and you have no memory of it, and it hasn't caused any perceptible loss of function, you don't really mind. At least that's my experience and the vast experience of circumcised men.

---

How would I know if there was any loss of function (or sensation) if didn't ever get the chance to experience my own body pre-snipping?Basically, I just told you I would mind, but somehow you seem to think that the opposite is actually how I really feel.What part of, "I would very much mind!" don't you understand?

quote:

---

Tell me, crashfrog, what do you think of footbinding?

---

quote:

---

Sounds painfully and permanently debilitating. So I guess I'm opposed. Why, what did you think I would say?

---

I doubt that many people have died as a result of footbinding; probably much fewer than circumcision.I'll admit that i's not that great of an analogy, though.I am more interested in your thoughts about the parents of an infant getting his or her eyelids "fixed" to make them appear less "asian" and more "white". Do you think that's OK?

quote:

---

Americans have the most sex, on average, of any nation on Earth.

---

Are you sure about that?I couldn't find any statistics to confirm this assertion when I searched the web, but mabe you have a link?The last time heard anything about this kind of thing, it seems most married Americans would much rather watch TV than have sex.

quote:

---

It wasn't my intent to dictate to you what you would or would not mind. But I see that it came off that way. Sorry.

---

It's OK, thanks. I was probably primed to read it the wrong way anyhow.

quote:

---

I'd be more concerned about what kind of culture would cause two people to feel that that was something they needed to have done to their child. With no knowledge of what culture they're in I can't really say whether it's ok or not. But in the culture I'm in, no, that's not ok, it's kind of racist, or even perverse.

---

So you have no judgement about the culture in which this hypothetical couple and infant live; a culture in which is it considered "normal" to have white-looking eyes and "abnormal" to have asian-eyes?I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from by now.