The Big C: Circumcision

doctrbill writes:

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I believe it was Rrhain who alluded to glands in the urethra

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No, not the urethra. The glans. There are glands in the glans (Tyson's glands, to be specific) which keep it moist, provided the foreskin is there to keep the secretions there.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Primordial Egg responds to me:

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With your argument comes an implicit idea of reverting to the norm, which is fair enough, really - although, in the case of circumcision, you've restricted the norm to be that which the boy in question was born with.

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The same with the burn victim: We're going back to what you were born with.

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And in situations where circumcision is the norm in society, you've previously argued along the lines that the child should have the -ahem- cajones to avoid teasing by declaring his penis a non-topic for conversation.

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Not quite. I've argued that the, "But they'll be teased!" argument doesn't really fly since they will always be teased about something. To act as if circumcising a boy will allow him to have a happy, trauma-free childhood where he will never be subject to having all the other kids pointing and laughing is to be disingenuous at best.It's going to happen. Kids are cruel. They'll find anything and everything to make fun of each other over. I still remember the first day I went to school with glasses as a 2nd grader and how a friend of mine immediately bolted at the front door in order to tell the entire school that I had them. It will simply happen. It always does. To subject an unconsenting individual to unnecessary surgery under some idea that this will somehow remove that doesn't wash.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog responds to me:

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Excuse me? You didn't just say this, did you?

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Ok, now you're just getting annoying.

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I know. You keep annoying me with your blase attitude about taking a knife to an infant.It's kind of like what happened to me in second grade. I was going to Catholic school (don't ask me why...my mother was Greek Orthdox, my father Lutheran...neither has a really good relationship with the Catholic Church.) But my mother, being Greek, had taught me the various Greek myths as a child...not realizing that I was buying it. So the teacher asks what the tallest mountain in the world is and I shoot my hand up: Mt. Olympus.No, no, it's Mt. Everest.No, it's Mt. Olympus. That's where all the gods live!(*blink!*)Yes. Mt. Olympus. When the gods took dominion over the earth, they needed a vantage point where they could look over all of humanity and so they chose the tallest mountain in the world, Mt. Olympus.(*blink!*)You can imagine the reaction of the nuns. A real, live pagan in front of them. Unrepentant. Doesn't understand the implications of what he's saying or who he's saying it to.So when you come on here and say that there is no sexual function to the foreskin, I have to blink in incredulity. Did you really just say that? When you say that being circumcised is a requirement, I have to blink in incredulity. Did you really just say that?It's as if you came along and said, "And as we all know, the earth is flat."(*blink!*)Excuse me? Did you really just say that?

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If you want to know what I said it's right there in the post. If you're trying to express shock at a position radically different from your own, that's fine, but all you're doing now is subsituting personal incredulity for logical argument. As you don't generally allow creationists to do this I'm surprised to see it from your own mouth (fingers?).

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But I ask you to justify your position. How can you possibly say that the foreskin serves no sexual function? How can you possibly say that being circumcised is necessary? That it results in "great social ostracism"?I asked you directly once and you didn't respond:Have you ever been around an uncircumcised penis during sex?Your statements seem to be indicative of someone who hasn't.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog responds to me:

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But I ask you to justify your position.

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Well, that's fine. You might have done it a little clearer, however, so I could have known exactly what parts of my statements you wanted me to substantiate.

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Um, it never occurred to you that the statement that I quoted was the one I wanted you to justify? When I said, "You didn't just say that, did you?" what did you think the "that" refers to?

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General incredulity doesn't help mein fleshing out my position for you.

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And feigning ignorance like you are now doesn't help your position, either.

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Now, if you're done blinking, can we have a discussion?

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Sure. Justify your statements that I blinked at. I even took the time and trouble to quote them for you so that you'd remember what it was you said. Do I need to repeat them?

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When you say that being circumcised is a requirement, I have to blink in incredulity. Did you really just say that?

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In this case, no, I didn't actually say that.

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Oh, we're about to have a semantic argument, aren't we? I'm going to quote what you said, you're going to respond that you didn't use the word "requirement," and then you're going to pretend that the word you really used doesn't mean that.(*sigh!*)Well, if you insist: You're going to say that "necessary" doesn't mean "requirement."I'll point out that you have gone on and on about the social ostracism an uncircumcised boy would have to endure quoting your statements of: And So give unto me a frickin' break. For you to quibble over the word "requirement" when it is clear that it's exactly what you mean is not conducive to this "discussion" you claimed you wanted to have above.

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What I said was that circumcision is as corrective a surgery as correcting webbed feet.

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See...here we go.You said much more than that.

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Have you ever been around an uncircumcised penis during sex?

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I have no personally been around an uncircumcised penis during sex.

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Then where on earth do you get off making statements such as: If you have absolutely no experience over how an uncircumcised penis works, how can you possibly make any legitimate claim about what is or is not stimulated?

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On the other hand, men and women I know (and whose opinion I respect) have been around both circumcised and uncircumcised penises, and they are unanimous in their preference of circumcised penises.

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As I said before, which you also ignored:And the fact that so few males are intact in this country has nothing to do with it, of course.Go to a country where circumcision is rare and take a poll.

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Even those who opted for circumcision later in life think it's better. Statistically circumcised men have more active and satisfying sex lives.

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Incorrect. It's the other way around. While I don't deny your personal anecdote, surely I don't have to remind you that anecdote is not evidence. The general opinion of those who have been circumcised after sexual maturity is that uncircumcised is better.

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If the foreskin has an effect on sex I'm afraid I must conclude it is a negative effect.

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How would you know? You don't have one and you only have anecdote.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog responds to me:

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Little boys die from their circumcisions, crash. Isn't that enough?

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Enough to stop? Not really.

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(*blink!*)Excuse me? You didn't just say that, did you?Killing someone when you didn't have to is somehow not a problem? Deliberately putting someone in a situation where they can and do die when there is absolutely no reason to do it is not a problem?

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What if your son turns out to be gay? A foreskin could make him quite popular.

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I understand most gay men also prefer circumcised men.

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You understand wrong.

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The combination of a foreskin and anal sex (for instance) would seem to be undesirable.

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Question: Do you have anal sex often?Then how would you know if the combination is "undesireable"?Does the phrase "cleaning out" mean anything to you?

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You think it's abuse to take away a part of their body. I think it's the greater abuse to leave them with something they'll be made to hate in the future.

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How do you know they're going to hate it?And if they hate it that much, they can take care of it themselves.Don't project your neurosis about foreskins onto your children.

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Neither of us can predict the future, but we can make our best guess about what's best for our children.

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But when your "best guess" requires surgery, one has to wonder why you seem to think that you need to carve up your children to satisfy your own obsession.

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That's all I'm trying to do - keep the option of circumsision open if my wife and I decide that's best for our child.

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Um, wouldn't "keeping the option open" require leaving the foreskin there? Once it's gone, you can't get it back. If your son is going to have the option, then you're going to have to leave it there and let him decide what to do with it.It's his body, not yours.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Agent Uranium [GPC] responds to me:

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We're going back to what you were born with.

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Does this mean you would feel averse to cutting off a child's tail if (s)he came into this world with such an atavistic, but perfectly natural, feature? If it didn't cause any medical problems?

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I don't think it could not cause any medical problems.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

doctrbill responds to me:

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There are also glands, in the eurethra, which produce a superb lubricant. It's purpose seems to be to facilite ejaculation. It is sometimes called "pre-ejaculate fluid."

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Well, sorta.There is the prostate gland and Cowper's glands that produce seminal fluid and such. They empty into the urethra, yes, but they are within the body cavity, not anywhere near the glans. Plus, they are only in action during sex. The Tyson's glands, on the other hand, are in the glans and are secreting whether you have sex or not.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog writes:

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Upon doing exactly that, I discovered that my wife at least felt that a token snip of the labia, performed at birth and entailing no alteration of function later in life, was not that big a deal.

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Since removal of the foreskin does result in an alteration of function, where do you stand?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog writes:

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it hasn't caused any perceptible loss of function

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How do you know? You've never had a foreskin in order to be able to tell the difference.The general consensus from those who have had their foreskins removed later in life and can tell the difference is that having a foreskin is better.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog responds to me:

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The general consensus from those who have had their foreskins removed later in life and can tell the difference is that having a foreskin is better.

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Then why do people opt for the procedure?

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The most common are medical. Phimosis causes painful erections and circumcision is indicated to correct the condition.Following that are those that are converting and get circumcised for religious reasons.There are very few people who get circumcised on a lark.

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For that matter, how many people in your sample can't tell the difference?

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According to the studies I've seen, most can tell a difference and most say it's better with a foreskin.

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And why do men without foreskins have more sex, and report greater satisfaction with their sex lives?

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They don't. It's the other way around.

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As has been mentioned, America has the greatest incidence of circumcision in men. Americans have the most sex, on average, of any nation on Earth. Now, I'm not trying to argue causality, but I find that may be indicative of something.

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And you're not trying to argue causality.Do you really think we're that dumb?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!