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Author Topic:   Does Death Pose Challenge To Abiogenesis
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2783 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 91 of 191 (533318)
10-30-2009 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Cedre
10-30-2009 3:31 AM


Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
Cedre writes:

So in cases of severe cell damage you body has undergone great damage thus it's harder to be revived in such a case.

Bingo! So a dead body is indeed different from a living one. If there's cell damage, than the parts are no longer connected, and the cells are ruined. The reason why the animal or person can not come back to life is NOT because a spirit has flown away, but because of irreversible cell damage.

Now what evidence do you have that life requires a supernatural component? You keep asserting that life without a supernatural component is dead, but where's the evidence?

And where's the connection with abiogenesis? A broken human body that has undergone irreversible damage on the cellular level can not come back to life! This would require restoring many many damaged "parts" back to function. This is not the type of event that abiogenesis describes. Abiogenesis is about the formation of simple replicators. Not about reanimated zombies.

Respectfully,

-Meldinoor

Edited by Meldinoor, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 3:31 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 5:34 AM Meldinoor has not yet responded
 Message 94 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 5:48 AM Meldinoor has not yet responded

    
Cedre
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 92 of 191 (533320)
10-30-2009 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Meldinoor
10-30-2009 3:42 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
Bingo! So a dead body is indeed different from a living one.

Don't fool yourself severe cell damage as I showed in my previous post doesn't occur until later after death. Cell damage occurs right after death but it's minute and negligible compared to the damage that occurs hours later, but for several hours even the cells of the heart hasn't undergone any severe damage. I gave links for this in my previous post

A broken human body that has undergone irreversible damage on the cellular level can not come back to life!

As I keep on saying irreversible damage doesn't occur rapidly after death it takes hours according to the links in my previous post, muscle tissue(heart et) doesn't disintegrate for several hours so does bone and skin tissue, brain tissue breaks down first but then again people can stay alive with a dead brain as the Wikipedia link that I gave demonstrates. The fact that organisms die even though the essential requirements for life are intact show that life is not just a sum of its part this creates a problem for abiogenesis. I have provided supporting evidence for my argument so far that organisms die even though all the parts required for life are in place.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Meldinoor, posted 10-30-2009 3:42 AM Meldinoor has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1551
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 93 of 191 (533321)
10-30-2009 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Cedre
10-30-2009 3:00 AM


Brains are important
quote:
I have shown you that this destruction doesn't happen as fast as you're proposing, it's a process taking place in stages; the earliest cells to undergo deterioration are brain cells "Brain cells can die if deprived of oxygen for more than three minutes." http://www.deathonline.net/...hanges/heart_stops.htm,however despite damage to the brain life can carry on, in fact this is what is seen in victims of brain damage, which is the total necrosis of the cerebral neurons following loss of blood flow and oxygenation in line with Wikipedia. Conversely, muscle cells live on for several hours meaning that heart is still intact for several hours following death even at the cellular level. Bone and skin cells can stay alive for several days as well. A great deal of cell deterioration doesn't happen right after death as Wikipedia here says,"The process of tissue breakdown may take from several days up to years" http://en.wikipedia.org/...Decomposition#Human_decomposition, for this reason I said a couple of times already that a dead body and a living one are not all that different from each other.

As you point out here, brain cells are amongst the first to die when starved of oxygen, and the brain is a pretty vital and central part of the effective functioning of a human body. I'm not sure of what significance it's supposed to be if skin cells are still puttering along a day or two after death - skin and bone cells do not a coherent, functioning organism make.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 3:00 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 5:50 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 94 of 191 (533322)
10-30-2009 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Meldinoor
10-30-2009 3:42 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
Now what evidence do you have that life requires a supernatural component? You keep asserting that life without a supernatural component is dead, but where's the evidence?

I have been giving the evidence from the very beginning of this post. I showed that dead organisms have all the components required for life yet have no life, its like a car with all its parts but refusing to move. Abiogenesis claims all we need are parts to be alive, but death defies this claim, as I have shown many times already. From this I concluded that parts are not all that is required for life, and I proposed that perhaps a spirit is also needed for life.

A broken human body that has undergone irreversible damage on the cellular level can not come back to life! This would require restoring many many damaged "parts" back to function.

The human body is not that onionskin it can withstand tremendous stress, and it can also exist without a few parts, it can also survive on with a damaged or dead brain.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Meldinoor, posted 10-30-2009 3:42 AM Meldinoor has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 6:14 AM Cedre has responded
 Message 131 by Capt Stormfield, posted 10-30-2009 5:40 PM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Cedre
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 95 of 191 (533323)
10-30-2009 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by caffeine
10-30-2009 5:45 AM


Re: Brains are important
As you point out here, brain cells are amongst the first to die when starved of oxygen, and the brain is a pretty vital and central part of the effective functioning of a human body.

despite damage to the brain life can carry on, in fact this is what is seen in victims of brain damage, which is the total necrosis of the cerebral neurons following loss of blood flow and oxygenation in line with Wikipedia. Conversely, muscle cells live on for several hours meaning that heart is still intact for several hours following death even at the cellular level.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by caffeine, posted 10-30-2009 5:45 AM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by NosyNed, posted 10-30-2009 11:10 AM Cedre has responded

    
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 2916 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


(1)
Message 96 of 191 (533324)
10-30-2009 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Cedre
10-30-2009 2:18 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
Hi Cedre

You say: "a car won't have speed unless it is driven by somebody"

What about if it is driven by a computer? Does the computer have a soul?

You keep ignoring the points that many have made that the "parts" or materials that were present for abiogenesis were nothing like an apparently intact dead body. They would have been chemical elements or compounds that, under certain conditions of chance, went through a non-random process of reactions that eventually led to what we would consider to be self-replicating lifeforms.

That is a TOTALLY different situation to repairing and resuscitating a fully formed but deceased body.

Going back to the car analogy, if you had all the raw materials to build a car (iron ore, rubber, oil, glass, etc) and processed those materials from scratch and assembled them to build a car, that is a totally different series of processes than those that would be needed to repair and kick-start a car that was already fully built but had developed some sort of fault (say the engine was seized up by rust).

You also seem obsessed with certain parts of the body not deteriorating quickly after death and wondering why we can't therefore resuscitate the body. Well, if there was a serious fault with your heart, brain, or vascular system, for example, it wouldn't matter how perfectly preserved the rest of your body was, you wouldn't be able to live. Yes, we can live with some faults, like a car. But a car won't have speed just because it's lights are working perfectly or it has beautifully preserved leather upholstery. If it develops a serious fault with the engine, or runs out of fuel, it won't have speed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 2:18 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 6:17 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 97 of 191 (533325)
10-30-2009 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Cedre
10-30-2009 5:48 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
Cedre writes:

I have been giving the evidence from the very beginning of this post. I showed that dead organisms have all the components required for life yet have no life, its like a car with all its parts but refusing to move.


You yourself have admitted that dead things after a certain amount of time do not have all the components for life. Or else, it would be possible for us to revive people who've been dead 2 or even 3 days. You have said this is impossible. This has nothing to do with the "spirit" and everything to do with the fact that dead things don't have the same components as living things.

Abiogenesis claims all we need are parts to be alive, but death defies this claim, as I have shown many times already.

No you haven't. In fact, you have admitted just that. When there is death, decay ensues, and that makes it impossible to revive people. This may not be extensive enough in the first minutes after death, but try it after 3 hours, see if you can revive anyone then.

From this I concluded that parts are not all that is required for life, and I proposed that perhaps a spirit is also needed for life.

You have concluded wrongly, as nothing you have said points to this. It in fact points to the opposite.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 5:48 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 6:24 AM Huntard has responded

    
Cedre
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 98 of 191 (533328)
10-30-2009 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
10-30-2009 6:06 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
You keep ignoring the points that many have made that the "parts" or materials that were present for abiogenesis were nothing like an apparently intact dead body.

I haven't ignored those "parts" or "materials", from the beginning I have said that abiogenesis claims all that's required for life are parts but living organisms today are violating that concept when they die.

What about if it is driven by a computer? Does the computer have a soul?

All you have done is replace the human driver with a non-human driver, in the end the car still requires a driver without a driver its not going to move and won't display any speed.

They would have been chemical elements or compounds that, under certain conditions of chance, went through a non-random process of reactions that eventually led to what we would consider to be self-replicating lifeforms.

Present day living organisms are also self-replicating yet once an organism dies its reproduction system shuts down. The material needed for replication also need a source of power, a driver if we use the car analogy.

and processed those materials from scratch and assembled them to build a car, that is a totally different series of processes than those that would be needed to repair and kick-start a car that was already fully built but had developed some sort of fault (say the engine was seized up by rust).

Whether your building a car from scratch or just repairing it a driver is still required for it to move.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 10-30-2009 6:06 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 10-30-2009 6:32 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 116 by Drosophilla, posted 10-30-2009 9:35 AM Cedre has responded

    
Cedre
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 99 of 191 (533330)
10-30-2009 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Huntard
10-30-2009 6:14 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
You yourself have admitted that dead things after a certain amount of time do not have all the components for life.

Yes I did but before that time arrives they still have all the parts intact.

No you haven't. In fact, you have admitted just that. When there is death, decay ensues, and that makes it impossible to revive people. This may not be extensive enough in the first minutes after death, but try it after 3 hours, see if you can revive anyone then.

Yes I have. It takes a while for decay to ensue in the meantime important cells as the heart muscle cells are intact. Yet the organism is dead showing that even with all the essential parts for life intact an organism can be lifeless thus abiogenesis confronts a problem.

You have concluded wrongly, as nothing you have said points to this. It in fact points to the opposite.

I think my conclusion is rational and follows from the evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 6:14 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 6:33 AM Cedre has responded

    
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 2916 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 100 of 191 (533331)
10-30-2009 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Cedre
10-30-2009 6:17 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
The "driver" in the human body may be considered to be the brain, or some other organ - no need for a soul, whatever that is.

You STILL don't get it! The "parts" as you call them, that would have been necessary for abiogenesis, are not the same as body parts! They would have been chemical elements or compounds that came together by chance UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS and went through a series of reactions that eventually led to self-replicating lifeforms. There is NO REASON why the parts of a newly deceased body should go through the same process!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 6:17 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 101 of 191 (533332)
10-30-2009 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Cedre
10-30-2009 6:24 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
Cedre writes:

Yes I did but before that time arrives they still have all the parts intact.


So, what you're saying is that it is indeed due to the parts not being intact that causes a person not to be revivable, and not the spirit.

Yet the organism is dead showing that even with all the essential parts for life intact an organism can be lifeless thus abiogenesis confronts a problem.

Uhm no. There is something wrong with the body, else it wouldn't be dead. The fact that we can repair a bit within a few minutes of death occuring does not prove a spirit.

I think my conclusion is rational and follows from the evidence.

But it doesn't. For you to be able to draw this conclusion, you'd have to have evidence that it is due to the (as of yet unevidenced) spirit that a body is revived, and not due to the doctors replacing a function that stopped/broke.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 6:24 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 8:52 AM Huntard has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5363
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 102 of 191 (533333)
10-30-2009 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Cedre
10-30-2009 2:18 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
It's not what is expected, as I showed above, a car may have all the necessary parts intact but unless there's a driver it won't have speed, in the same vein a body may be present but without a spirit and soul it won't have life.

So nematodes and mushrooms have souls and spirits, correct? Those are requirements for life, or just for animal life? Clarify that for me before we go much further, Cedre - it impacts your argument a bit.

Does an earthworm have a soul and a spirit? Is an earthworm alive?
How about a maple tree?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 2:18 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 8:34 AM Coragyps has responded

    
Cedre
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 103 of 191 (533335)
10-30-2009 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Coragyps
10-30-2009 7:12 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
So nematodes and mushrooms have souls and spirits, correct? Those are requirements for life, or just for animal life? Clarify that for me before we go much further, Cedre - it impacts your argument a bit.

Does an earthworm have a soul and a spirit? Is an earthworm alive?
How about a maple tree?

Yes animals do have a spirit, in other words the breath of life

(Gen 7:22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Animals however do not have souls, plants also have a spirit, view a spirit as a life giving force or wind. However in a man the spirit has a secondary function and that is to establish a connection between him and God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Coragyps, posted 10-30-2009 7:12 AM Coragyps has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Coragyps, posted 10-30-2009 9:16 AM Cedre has responded

    
Cedre
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 104 of 191 (533336)
10-30-2009 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Huntard
10-30-2009 6:33 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
So, what you're saying is that it is indeed due to the parts not being intact that causes a person not to be revivable, and not the spirit.

No, dead organisms have intact parts yet are dead, lifeless.

Uhm no. There is something wrong with the body, else it wouldn't be dead. The fact that we can repair a bit within a few minutes of death occuring does not prove a spirit.

My argument is abiogenesis talks about life being solely reliant on parts but dead organisms still have the components required for life yet are not alive. Like suffocated human being or other causes of death where theres no physical injury to the organism every part is intact in the right place yet no life is present.

But it doesn't. For you to be able to draw this conclusion, you'd have to have evidence that it is due to the (as of yet unevidenced) spirit that a body is revived, and not due to the doctors replacing a function that stopped/broke.

Here's a link to possible proof for the spirit. http://creationwiki.org/Soul#Experimentation


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 6:33 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 9:11 AM Cedre has responded
 Message 108 by Theodoric, posted 10-30-2009 9:17 AM Cedre has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 105 of 191 (533338)
10-30-2009 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Cedre
10-30-2009 8:52 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
Cedre writes:

No, dead organisms have intact parts yet are dead, lifeless.


They are dead precisely because something isn't working properly anymore.

My argument is abiogenesis talks about life being solely reliant on parts but dead organisms still have the components required for life yet are not alive.

Because they don't have all the parts needed to be alive, for example, a working brain.

Like suffocated human being or other causes of death where theres no physical injury to the organism every part is intact in the right place yet no life is present.

Yes, because the brain stopped functioning. the fact we can kick start it back up recently soon after it has stopped is not eviidence for s spirit.

Here's a link to possible proof for the spirit.

You know we don't discuss links here. It doesn't contain any evidence anyway. Further it is about the soul, not the spirit. And it says dogs don't have a soul. If you say this is about the spirit, then dogs don't have one, and you said they did.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 8:52 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 9:16 AM Huntard has responded

    
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