Evolution of "light"

Hi, Wise, welcome aboard!
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Rather than repeating your question in each post, please help move discussion along by explaining in greater detail what kind of information would help answer your question. I also ask that those in dialogue with you work with you to help you clarify what it is you're looking for.------------------
-- Percy
EvC Forum AdministratorHello Percy,In all due respect, I am apparently at the wrong forum then.I posed a question that has not been answered by the evolutionists. Nor can they.In such cases I may be better to go elsewhere.Too bad...It would have been GLORIOUS !WiseAd dog will always be a dog, a dog a dog...it will NEVER change species...EVER. Never forget it !

Awinkisis----The beauty of science is that it can say "I don't know yet". Just because science cannot precisely say how light came into existence doesn't mean that God did it. There are plenty of other physical properties for which we have not come up with origins for (ex. gravity, time, etc.). For millennia religion has been saying that God was responsible for this and that but eventually Science found more plausible and useful explanations. The unknown is just that. Given enough time science will come up with substantial and useful explanations for most phenomena.Wise----Oh, what the heck. I can't resist !Awinkisis:Will Science ever understand EVERYTHING there is to know in the universe? A yes or no answer would be sufficient.I would submit to you that man does NOT have the brain capacity to understand all things, for that matter, things within ones own backyard are still very confusing.If man cannot understand that WHICH HE SEES, then how can he understand that WHICH HE CANNOT SEE? I.E. a god?Wise

Coraqyps---No, the Genesis account has some preexisting person speaking light into being. There is no evidence for anything preexisting the Big BangWise---But you just suggested, "light happened". If you believbe this then Science and the Biblical account have just been reconciled on this particular account.Bible---God said "let there be light" and there was light.Science---*poof* and there was light.In both cases, light "just happened". Right?Now, I will ask you and other evolutionists another difficult question:Please describe to me and all here the evolution of the four chambered heart. [Please, no replies to this in this thread as it is off topic. I have asked Wise to open a new thread for this topic, but if you wish to reply to this and he hasn't opened a new thread yet, then please feel free to open it yourself. --Admin]One rule:No, "could haves", "might haves", "may haves" or other such statements of 'faith'. I would like pure Science and facts.Please begin......Wise[This message has been edited by Admin, 09-02-2003]

Awinkisis----There are many things that man cannot see. No one has ever seen a quark but we know they exist by the evidential trails that they leave. And we know some of their properties. Our knowledge is increasing at an exponential rate. Mathematics shows that an exponentially increasing function never reaches infinity, but it comes close.Just because we don't understand something now doesn't mean that we won't in the future. If we were to attribute everything we don't know now to a god then we can stop all the research and sit back secure in the knowledge that we have an answer to all the questions ... God did it!Wise----So then, Are you saying that man will one day understand the entire universe?I'll save you the trouble.IT WON'T HAPPEN.Why? Man does not have the capacity for it.Simple things like peanuts, as discovered by George Washington Carver, contain HOSTS of discoveries, and you think you can understand the universe? HAW !!I could show you a picture of the Carina and ask you to explain it, where it came from, what it is, how it evolved, its chemical makeup, and could you?Nope.Why?Because you do not, nor will you ever have the capacity for it. It is really THAT simple.WiseBesides that, what makes you think mans knowledge is increasing so much with such low SAT scores?

DAN CAROLL----What color are the tentacles which are growing out of your back? If you are unable to answer a simple question about color, you are obviously unqualified to speak about light. All color comes from light, are you aware of that?Please answer this question, without any diversionary tactics such as "there are no tentacles growing out of my back."I want to know what color they are. I believe you will not be able to answer and I am ALWAYS right about what I believe.Wise---Then perhaps you can en"light"en us and explain the evolvement of colors, spectrum by spectrum.Wise

Parasomnium----Something tells me you are not interested at all in the answers to your specific questions. If you are presented with answers, you flatly ignore them and ask the question again, or ask a different question altogether. You present no real argument and your style of debating (if it can be called 'debating' at all) is pretty insufferable, with your "Please begin..." every time.I think the only thing you are interested in is another "won challenge" to add to your undoubtedly long list. The rest of us here are more interested in intelligent debate and exchange of knowledge and viewpoints. If you have something useful to add, please do. If not, please keep yourself in check.Wise----What answers?I haven't seen any. Look...it is up to the evolutionists to explain the evolution of light. My belief in its creation is based upon "faith" which requires NO explanation.From a Scientists, or evolutionists point of view light and its creation, or evolvement MUST be explained.Care to have a crack at it?Wise

ALEX----to wise: I think some clarification on your part is needed: When you say light, is it visible electromagnetic radiation you are meaning? or electromagnetic radiation in general? Or are you saying electromagnetic interactions in general?
If it is one of the first two you will have to clarify as to how evolution (or indeed life) is rendered impossible by the absence of electromagnetic radiation (whatever wavelength), however improbable the (total) absence of electromagnetic waves is ..
If it is the latter your point is moot, as evolution explains the biological development of lifeforms in our universe...As stated, light did not evolve in any way biological lifeforms do, but is just the property of nature that matter will under certain conditions "loose" energy in the form of photons...best regardsWise----O.K....then if light did not evolve, then are you saying it "just happened"...like the Biblical account?Wise

CRASHFROG---Um, not really. In the Genesis account, God adds light to the universe after the fact.In reality, light is a fundamental force of the universe. It's as old as the universe. (Also there's no god - thought I'd throw that in just to tweak you.)So no, they don't agree.Wise---Adds light after what fact?Your idea of "instantanious" creation of light rather than evolvement is in line with the BIBLICAL ACCOUNT. otherwise EXPLAIN ITS EVOLUTION and birth.Wise

Awinkisas---You try to have an intelligent repartee with someone and they go and bring up peanuts! I swear this came right out of left field. Please, enlighten me on the mysteries of the noble peanut.Wise---Perhaps you would be better served to enlighten yourself ? Haven't you ever heard the TRUE story about George Washington Carver?Let me enlighten you:It has been said that george Washington carver, as a young Scientist, one day, asked God..."show me the secrets of the universe"...
Young George heard Gods reply to him..."Son, I could never show you the secrets of the universe because you would NEVER be able to handle it, but I WILL show you the secrets of the peanut..BEGIN to tear it apart" .At that young George began to tear apart the peanut, and with that, medicines, soaps and hundreds of other uses emerged from the peanut.READ you Science book GIRL !Awinkisis----As for the Carina, are you referring to the constellation or the bay in St. Croix?Wise---The Nebulaunwise writes:IT WON'T HAPPEN.
Why? Man does not have the capacity for it.Awinkisis----How can you be so certain? What is man's capacity? When should mankind throw in the towel and say "That's it ... we can't learn anymore"Wise----Mans capacity is about 2% of brain usage. Some liberal estimates have it at 10%. You DON'T have the capacity.Again, what makes you think man will learn everything in the universe? Will you one day stand upon distant planets and study its soil and atmosphere? Will you study distant stars at close range? Will you enter a blackhole? HAW !! You BETTER get that enterprize built if you want to study the far reaches of the Universe! Our own galaxy is beyond your knowledge and comprehension ! You WILL NEVER know everything about it...NEVER !Now really, in all your foolishness, can you now say that man will understand ALL someday? HHMMMM?unwise writes:Because you do not, nor will you ever have the capacity for it. It is really THAT simple.Awinkisis---How do you know that? Some facts to back up your statements would be appreciated.Wise----Facts !? FACTS, you say !!?? I just gave you several above. Please explain the universe to me ? Starting with our solar system and expanding to the edge of our Milky Way.Awinkisis---As for the SAT's, you have failed to grasp the difference between knowledge and intelligence.Wise----Does knowledge come from intelligence?Wise

JOHN----You can't possibly know this.Wise---OF COURSE , I know it. You evolutionists are so far removed from reality that you cannot see it.
Again, will you stand on distant planets some day far BEYOND our galaxy? How can you EVEN THINK that you will know everything? You are standing on planet earth RIGHT NOW and you STILL don't know everything about it!
And we haven't even been to Mars yet!Man WILL NEVER know everything about the universe...NEVER.I am a realist, NOT a dreamer.Wise

CRASHFROG----What, yours? That's hardly mankind's faultWise----Yeah right....blame it on Clinton.Wise

CRASHFROG---After the universe. See, God moves over the waters at the beginning, right? Before he creates light? How can there be water if there's no universe? There can't, so we know that the Biblical accounts says that first comes the universe, then water, then light.But the cosmological model says that the universe comes first, light at the same time (since it's a fundamental force in the universe), and water after millions of years.Clearly the accounts don't agree. The order is wrong. What's hard to understand about that?Wise---Yes, but light was "instantaneous" in both cases. It "just happened". One by the supposed "bang" and the other by the spoken word, then "bang".Both identical and reconciliable.Light was Gods first "spoken" creation and it was the Bangs first creation.Wise

YARO-----Wise
Why the heck do you think Light must have evolved? Evolution only applies to living things. Don't you see how stupid your question is?It's like asking "how do rocks run?" or "how do trees speak?", it's a nonsensical question. Now, you can easely ask were did light come from, or the universe for that matter, and guess what, you may actually be on to something!Because, we simply don't know. Sure we have theories that explain the universes inseption like the Big Bang, but it has yet to account for what is beyond the universe, or it's purpose for being (if indeed it has one). And the theory is largly speculative. So sure, maybe God is at the end of it after all! But we don't know... YET.In any case, we do know things evolve, and from that knowledge we can estimate the earths age, and the timespan of biology uppon it's surface.So, now do you see why your question dosn't make sense?Now... before you go restating it, can I ask you to bring me a sourcee, a webpage, a quote from a book, etc. that states that evolution must acount for phisical principals such as light, gravity, etc. Because evolution has never proported to be involved in these phenomena, it is strictly a principle of living matter.Now... I know you think somehow light must be present for life to exist, so pelase don't restate this. It is an irelivant point, and a dubius one at that since there is life that dosn't depend on light. Please answer why you think, life must have evolved for evolution to be true. Sources please!So please, bring us the evolutionist why stated light eveolvedWise---ALAS!! Someone with an open cranial cavity. BTW, you are not ignored. You , at least, believe there MAY be a god behind it all though you believe it is not proven.good, very good.Light is a form f energy, though not totally understood. It is admitted that for life to survive (as WE know it) on another planet, for example, that the sun, or suns would play a vital role.IF that be the case, then what we may not KNOW about light is that it is "living". And anything that "lives" requires a beginning. To an evolutionists this would require "evolution".Life requires 3 things, one of them is light:CUT AND PASTE:::jan.ucc.nau.edu/~bah/BIO471/SulfurMethane.pdfWise[This message has been edited by Wise, 09-03-2003]

Parasomnium---You haven't seen any answers. Would that be because you do not read our responses? It has been explained to you that light does not evolve, and that 'evolvement' is not a word. Yet, you stubbornly persist in your soliloquy, giving me the impression that I'm dealing with a tape recorder. A fruitful discussion with you is not possible, it seems. Especially so since you've just disqualified yourself with your 'faith which requires NO explanation.' I'll just leave you here and go and talk to people who do not behave like zombies.GoodbyeWise---Faith requires NO explanation. Why? Because it is just that..F-A-I-T-H. It is a belief in something that may or may not be true.Science, on the other hand, REQUIRES that ALL THINGS be explained scientifically. Thus it is up to you, the Scientist and evolutionists to do the explaining.But if you cannot take the heat, then...Ta Ta Pee Wee !Wise

Mr. JACK---Wise,
Why do you assume that because light didn't come about through evolution it had to 'just happen'? I don't think you'll find many Physicists to agree with you on that. They will probably tell you we don't know why the fundemental properties are as they are, but that is long way from saying they 'just happened'. Already there are tantalising hints of a deeper structure, explaining the values found in the Standard Model.You're quite right we will never know everything about the universe. Now explain how that means we can't explain it's origin and properties? You understand don't you that that's a very small part of everything about the universe?"Faith requires NO evidence", huh? Sounds to me like you've just chosen ignorance; don't expect us to rush to join youWise---"Tantalizing hints"? You mean like...GOOD GOD....Light COULD actually be "living"?! Thereby it needs a BEGINNING?! GASP...Choke...choke...
Fine...Then if Physicists do not think that light "just happened" then it will be up to them to explain its evolution.If one cannot know everything about the universe then how can one EVER undertsand its creator?To an atheist it is put this way:God is simply to "deep" for you.Wise