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Author | Topic: Air Force Academy creates worship area for Pagans, Druids, and Wiccans | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
You are suggesting that I take a court judgment as the authority over the view of one of the founding fathers? Clever. The views of a founding father will do quite nicely.
quote: Thomas Jefferson viewed the First Ammendment as protecting every religion, and the lack thereof.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
That the founders essentially endorsed the Biblical religion Where in the documents of the founding of the USA is this endorsement? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
You are suggesting that I take a court judgment as the authority over the view of one of the founding fathers? Clever. Ummmm, yeah!!!That is how the constitution and government work. You do realize that Mr. Jefferson was not in any way a christian as you understand a christian to be, don't you? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Prayer. That's about it. Ever read any studies about the effectiveness of prayer? About as worthless as pissing in the wind. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
The president said something to the effect that he wanted judges who have an empathy for the people. The problem is which people. The little guy. You know, me and you. As in the opposite of big corporations, lobbyists, and billionaires.
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Buz's point was that the Supreme Court is to serve the law, justice and truth, not people, and anyone who reduces their obligation to being sensitive to people has already trashed justice. Then why don't we appoint robots or computers? The very basis of law, justice, and truth is empathy, being able to put yourself in another person's shoes.
No, judges are to be about justice, not people. You know, that lady with the blindfold on holding the scales? That's to symbolize the impartiality of justice, that it's not to be a respecter of persons. The exact opposite of what Obama wants. Egads. You do want computers to run this country. How sad.
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ZephyrWiccan Junior Member (Idle past 5118 days) Posts: 9 Joined: |
quote: Hmmm...... could it be, ....... The Treaty of Tripoli? The one that says:Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed, and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof. As a preface, and later says: Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. Couldn't be that one, could it?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Treaty of Tripoli was an unendorsement of christianity.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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ZephyrWiccan Junior Member (Idle past 5118 days) Posts: 9 Joined: |
Exactly - not sure if the sarcasm came across in my post or not, but it was meant to be.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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I have had 6 beers tonight and really wished I could have had a 420 toke so I seem to be missing things like sarcasm.
I really need to get to know Oni better. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5952 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7 |
Also not in James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance, written a few years before he drafted the First Amendment.
A couple exerpts (do please read it in its entirety):
quote: That last should really sting Buz, who has repeatedly expressed the desire for the majority to trample the rights of the minority.
quote: The earliest expression of the Wall of Separation that I know of. Written by the drafter of the First Amendment a few years before that draft. Remember the Radical Religious Right's mantra of the 1980's? Original intent. There are 13 more articles, much of which outline the corrupting influence of religion upon civil government and vice versa.
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Faith, there is a rather large difference between prohibiting the formation of a school club (which would receive money/space/whatever from public dollars and thus constitute an official endorsement of that religion over others) and prohibiting the possession of Bibles or prayer by individual students. I'm not perfectly clear about what you're saying, so if I misunderstand, please forgive me, but I think you are incorrect about part of this. If a school generally lets student groups use school facilities, the school may not prohibit religiously oriented groups from using the facility on the same basis as the other groups. There is a specific Federal statute on this issue, and my opinion is that the Constitution requires this equality of treatment. This does not amount to an establishment of religion, instead it is an accommodation of religion. There is an inherent tension between the Establishment and Free Exercises Clauses. Reasonable minds can come to different conclusions on particular resolutions of different situations. But it is clear under current jurisprudence that schools must allow student religious groups access to school facilities to the same extent that other student groups have it. As far as just about everything Faith says in this thread, she is so irretrievably wrong that it would take someone with the wisdom of Oliver Wendell Holmes and the patience of Job to explain it to her. Since I lack both, I see no point in banging my head on that brick wall. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
That wasn't actually about the First Amendment, but about a bill in Virginia to protect religious freedom. However it does nicely show Jefferson's thinking and there is every reason to expect that he thought in the same way about the First Amendment's religious freedom clause. Which, we note, likewise made no specific reference to any religion. And any suggestion that the lack of any such mention was a mere oversight because Christianity was considered the only religion of significance obviously cannot stand in the light of this quote. Jefferson recognised the existence of other religions and thought that they should share in religious freedom.
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3132 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
The bottom line is that it is unfair to all Americans to promote one religion in the schools, government, etc at the expense of those who practice other religions.
Freedom of religion does not grant you the right to trample the freedoms of other religions (or non-believers) whether it be at school, government, the military or any other means of employment inside the United States of America. That is true justice (the concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, fairness, or equity). And yes justice would cease to exist without their being people to which it applies to. If you want a theocracy move to Iran, Saudi Arabia or the Vatican. Or go off and create your own. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4541 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
dwise1 (quoting James Madison) writes: The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. But you do realize that the only Religion is Christianity? If it's not Christianity, then it's not Religion at all but a trap of Satan. Thus the First Ammendment is only about protecting Christianity. Makes sense to me. I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die. -John Lydon What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.-Steven Dutch
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