EvC Forum: Circular reasoning

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Topic: Circular reasoning

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

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Message 105 of 142 (571205)
07-30-2010 6:51 PM

Reply to: Message 103 by Pauline
07-30-2010 6:43 PM

Pauline writes:

For a believer, God exists and His authority is proven - by God Himself - and that is more than sufficient.

Read what you write.

So God's authority depends on what someone believes.

By the way, I am a believer and so have every right to examine your position.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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	Message 103 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 6:43 PM		Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 107 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 7:21 PM		jar has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 109 of 142 (571212)
07-30-2010 7:49 PM

Reply to: Message 107 by Pauline
07-30-2010 7:21 PM

Pauline writes:

jar writes:

So God's authority depends on what someone believes.

Do angels exist?

A. Depends. Depends on whether or not you believe they do or not. That's because their existence is not determined by objective, universal, physical evidence like the existence of Bismuth metal is. Or Gold metal. Or the Sun. Or the moon.

That's the answer from man's perspective.

B. Their real existence is independent of whether or not you believe they do.

That's the answer from reality's perspective.

Huh?

Neither of those make any sense at all. It's also a very poorly done logical construct.

Let me see if I can help you.

Try this.

If angels exist then angels exist regardless of any belief or evidence that they do not exist.
If angels do not exist then they do not exist regardless of any belief or evidence that they exist.

Now that is at least a valid construct even if it tells us nothing.

Pauline writes:

God's authority, if it exists, exists regardless of whether or not people acknowledge it.

Sure, but so far you have offered no evidence to support God's authority anymore than Vishnu being the ultimate authority

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
	Message 107 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 7:21 PM		Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 111 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 8:00 PM		jar has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 112 of 142 (571217)
07-30-2010 8:15 PM

Reply to: Message 111 by Pauline
07-30-2010 8:00 PM

Pauline writes:

jar writes:

Sure, but so far you have offered no evidence to support God's authority anymore than Vishnu being the ultimate authority

This is what happens when you refuse to think about what I post and offer your own explanation like a pre-programmed robot. Did you even fully read the rest of the post you quoted me from? Did I not tell you that belief is relative and contingent on worldview? The topic is not "Pauline: list the reasons why God is the higher authority that exists.The topic is, is the so-alleged circular reasoning logical fallacy really a fallacy in the Christian worldview? Why/ why not. How/ how not?

Yes, the argument you have presented is both circular and fallacious. You claimed that God is the ultimate authority because God claims to be the ultimate authority.

When it was pointed out to you that was just silly, for example crashfrog also claims to be the ultimate authority, you then made the claim that stories in a book and tales told long ago supported the idea that God was the ultimate authority; so the basis for your claim has moved from God's claim to the stories being the source. When it was pointed out to you that other stories and tales told long ago show that Vishnu is the ultimate authority, you switched to world view and faith. When it was pointed out to you that you were now claiming that it was YOUR belief that supported YOUR claim that the Christian God was the ultimate authority you returned the beginning.

Look, it's fine to say you believe that God is the ultimate authority, I actually agree with you, but quite honestly there is NO evidence, reason, logic or rational to support that belief.

It really is simply a matter of FAITH.

But everything you have posted is really circular and fallacious.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
	Message 111 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 8:00 PM		Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 113 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 8:24 PM		jar has replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 114 of 142 (571225)
07-30-2010 8:46 PM

Reply to: Message 113 by Pauline
07-30-2010 8:24 PM

Pauline writes:

Nonsense. My claim has always been God's self-authentication in His Word. Babble all you like.

Did you say "How can you read the Bible and also not agree that according to it, God is the ultimate authority? "

Did you say "Asking God to prove His authority is a matter of one's faith and worldview. "?

Did you say "For a believer, God exists and His authority is proven - by God Himself - and that is more than sufficient." ?

Pauline writes:

As far the bolded goes, it is people like you who make faith look silly and stupid by spreading falsehoods.

Then I imagine you can point out the falsehoods I'm spreading and show why they are false.

Pauline writes:

jar writes:

When it was pointed out to you that other stories and tales told long ago show that Vishnu is the ultimate authority, you switched to world view and faith.

Nonsense again. Looks like you are displaying your faulty thinking and misinterpretation on message boards for the whole web community to amuse themselves.

Then perhaps you can point out why the claims made in the Vedas are not sufficient to support Vishnu, the Creator, as the ultimate authority?

Pauline writes:

jar writes:

When it was pointed out to you that you were now claiming that it was YOUR belief that supported YOUR claim that the Christian God was the ultimate authority you returned the beginning.

Nonsense.

So you didn't post the things quoted above?

You did not say "Asking God to prove His authority is a matter of one's faith and worldview. " and "For a believer, God exists and His authority is proven - by God Himself - and that is more than sufficient."?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
	Message 113 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 8:24 PM		Pauline has not replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 124 of 142 (572769)
08-07-2010 1:54 PM

Reply to: Message 123 by barbara
08-07-2010 1:43 PM

Re: God's Demonstrations

barabara writes:

I say, "Question Everything" and stand firm in the belief that evolutionists and creationists is not the only choices to define life's processes.

Well, in reality there is no "creationist model" that explains anything so right now, the only game in town is the Evolutionary model.

That's not related to the topic though, not circular reasoning as much as claiming there are other models is simply misrepresentation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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	Message 123 by barbara, posted 08-07-2010 1:43 PM		barbara has not replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 128 of 142 (573658)
08-12-2010 10:31 AM

Reply to: Message 127 by Kairyu
08-12-2010 7:26 AM

Re: circular reasoning and evidence

WSW24 writes:

Pauline claims that the bible supporting god's ultimate authority because he beliefs the bible is divine, and written by god. This may seem circular, but he remedies it by his belief in evidence that it's true.(such as prophecies coming true, etc). Atheists and agnostics do not believe in this evidence, and as a result, in their view, the reasoning becomes circular.

The bigger issue could well be that it is not atheists and agnostics questioning his evidence but very devout Christian believers as well.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
	Message 127 by Kairyu, posted 08-12-2010 7:26 AM		Kairyu has not replied

jar

Member (Idle past 425 days)

Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 137 of 142 (576785)
08-25-2010 3:43 PM

Reply to: Message 134 by Pauline
08-25-2010 2:58 PM

The topic being, is the concept of self-authentication valid in worldivews that incorporate an ultimate authority, why/why not?

No, self-authentication is worthless. Self-authentication carries no weight or value. Your claims that your god is valid due to self-authentication is no different then crashfrog claiming he is god due to self-authentication.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
	Message 134 by Pauline, posted 08-25-2010 2:58 PM		Pauline has not replied

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