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Junior Member (Idle past 5060 days) Posts: 1 From: Austin, TX, US Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Problems with evolution? Submit your questions. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Scientific source supporting your claim? Well, for instance, I performed an experiment in micobiology lab which I detailed in another thread; to summarize, I transformed His-negative Ames E. coli into His-positive E. coli by introducing a small amount of new information by means of random mutation. (The His-neg bacteria were themselves the descendants of His-positive bacteria which had been transformed by removing a small amount of information to disable histadine biosynthesis.) The evidence for my claim is the obvious notion that since DNA contains information, mutations that introduce DNA will introduce new information.
No one is disputing genetic variation, but that mutation can, over time, result in new, useful genetic material, in turn leading to development of a new species (man-ape). I don't know what a "man-ape" is, but new species arise from old ones when so many genetic changes accrue that the new species can no longer successfully breed with the old one. That's what it means to be a "species", after all; a community of individuals defined by the capacity for interbreeding.
Though you might be thinking that copying errors can result in useful material, it really doesn't appear that way. It very much appears that way to me, because I observed it myself in the lab. Random mutations to Ames-strain E. coli produced reversion mutants with the highly useful ability to synthesize histidine on media that didn't contain it. I know that happened because I performed the experiment myself.
Physical examples of these would include dwarfism, albino eyes and skin colors, etc. Sure. Other examples would be increased plasminogen activator inhibitor function, increased lipioprotein lipase, enhanced immune system function due to a mutation in G protein beta-3, and so on. Don't get me wrong, it turns out that it's a lot easier to create a dramatic failure in a biological system than a dramatic improvement. But natural selection is a "ratchet" that pushes a species forward towards adaptation to environment, and selects against individuals who represent maladaption. Over time that ratchet results in significant, cumulative species change. Obviously.
Genetic mutation is a documented scientific FACT. Yes, which is why I continue to wonder why you keep asking where new genetic information comes from, because I know you know where it comes from - genetic mutation.
Now, would you like me to respond to the source I found for you? No, I'd like you to respond to me, since I'm the source. I've done the experiment that proves that mutation add new information. What questions would you like me to answer about it?
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2727 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Dennis.
dennis780 writes: Dr Adequate writes: Please tell us how to measure the complexity of an organism. I did, twice now. If you can't use the previous explanations to figure out why you are more complex than a single celled organism (though this is debatable as well in your case), then perhaps this is not the right forum for you. I really don't know how to explain it any better than that (or better than my quoted scientist). You have a lot to learn about both science and interpersonal communication, son. Your previous explanations for how you measure information or complexity of DNA were:
So, there are three possibilites:
This is not very promising for you, I’m afraid. Edited by Bluejay, : entered the word "how" where it should have been. Edited by Bluejay, : Formatting and links for quotes Edited by Bluejay, : "and thus, consequently, the most information and complexity" -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Scientific source supporting your claim? No one is disputing genetic variation, but that mutation can, over time, result in new, useful genetic material, in turn leading to development of a new species (man-ape). But this is trivial. Mutations include substitutions, insertions, deletions, and the fusing and fission of chromosomes. These alone are sufficient to turn any given genome into any other; just as adding and removing and altering enough letter will turn any book into any other book. Indeed, there are (literally) an infinite number of sequences of mutations which will get you from any genome to any other genome.
Though it is documented that genetic mutation has resulted in beneficial changes to a species (see previous messages with Dr. Adequate and myself), these examples of mutation were the result of genetic loss. A claim which is not "documented", nor indeed well-defined.
And more than likely has. Physical examples of these would include dwarfism, albino eyes and skin colors, etc. How is this scientific evidence of new useful genetic information from genetic mutation? Physical example would also include evidence of new useful genetic information from genetic mutations. Stop cherry-picking reality. --- A quetion for you. You admit that antibiotic resistance can be transmitted through plasmids. Now, tell us, is there a negative quantity of DNA contained in these plasmids? Does the gain of a plasmid constitute a "genetic loss" --- or a genetic gain? So when the resistance originally arises by mutation, what is that?
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
amino acid sequences in nucleotides What is it with creationists/IDists and this nonsense. This is something like the third one we have had turning up here talking about amino acids in DNA. Is there some sort of handbook about how to show you know nothing about genetics/molecular biology that they are all following? TTFN, WK
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2507 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
WK writes: Dennis writes: amino acid sequences in nucleotides What is it with creationists/IDists and this nonsense. This is something like the third one we have had turning up here talking about amino acids in DNA. Is there some sort of handbook about how to show you know nothing about genetics/molecular biology that they are all following? A quick search for "amino acid sequences in neucleotides" shows that our Dennis has got a first there, and could start an interesting meme. However, for your phrase "amino acids in DNA", here's a wonderful source that will revolutionise your view of what you see in the lab.
The Divine Secrets. Phrase highlighted several paragraphs down.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2727 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Wounded King.
I have to say, I might be changing my mind about this whole ridicule thing (Phil Plait - Don't be a dick) now. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
The Divine Secrets. Phrase highlighted several paragraphs down. Didn't this nutball(or someone like her) post here not too long ago? I have a vague memory of a poster that was offering to show us(in her self published book for $29.99) the true secrets of how DNA had a secret code or something like that. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4806 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: Nucleotides. Geez. Everyone in here is so touchy. Wheres the sense of humour?
quote: Unless you are my dad, I doubt I'll be taking interpersonal skills from you, and don't call me son, dad.
quote: NOT only base pairs. You forgot teaspoons. And as I said in a previous post, I have no idea which organisms are the most complex, as I haven't done any research into it, but it's not beyond the realm of possiblity that mammals are not the most complex. Physical appearance has no play on genetic information.
quote: 4. I have no idea who you are, but you have offered no scientific opinion whatsoever. It appears you have come to school me on proper treatment of others...so let me try this: if you have something to add, I'm interested. If not, goodbye. That was pretty nice, hey?
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4806 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: So, you are saying that if random letters are changed in a book to any random letters, eventually, you will have a completely new book with a coherant message?
quote: If you want examples, just ask. Organisms such as the wingless beetle living on an island, eyeless fish living in caves, and horses that no longer have split hooves are prime examples of natural selection due to genetic loss. Calling me a liar before I have a chance to offer examples is silly (I can go get the resources for these examples if you like, as well as others).
quote: But it's so easy to find examples of genetic loss. I'd really have to work to find examples of genetic gain. I may even have to resort to antibiotic resistance, and horizontal gene transfer.
quote: It would be silly for me to assume otherwise, since this was documented in the Nylonese and E. Coli experiments...
quote: Genetic gain. Continue.
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4806 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: You nincompoop. Did I say there are acids in nucleotides? No. I said the sequences are in the nucleotides. Which they are. Nucleotide arrangements code for amino acids. Were you adopted?
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dennis780 Member (Idle past 4806 days) Posts: 288 From: Alberta Joined: |
quote: Thats funny. Cause I just searched this: "Evolution facts are found" in google...and got this: No results found for "Evolution facts are found". This is because if you put quotes on, google will only search for websites with that exact phrase. Just because I'm an ID, doesn't mean I don't know how google works. At least your search found one result. ID =1Evo =0 That divine link brings you to some wierd hebrew-DNA site. I have no idea what this is for...I read it, but I have no reason to accept any of that as fact, since I don't speak hebrew, and don't follow conspiracy theories...partly why I don't accept evolution. BAM.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
So, you are saying that if random letters are changed in a book to any random letters, eventually, you will have a completely new book with a coherant message? Although this is obviously true, that's not actually what I was saying. Read it again.
If you want examples, just ask. Organisms such as the wingless beetle living on an island, eyeless fish living in caves, and horses that no longer have split hooves are prime examples of natural selection due to genetic loss. Calling me a liar before I have a chance to offer examples is silly (I can go get the resources for these examples if you like, as well as others). You seemed to be making a general assertion --- that beneficial mutations were always associated with genetic loss. If you only claim that this is sometimes the case, then this may well be true --- though we would have to await your definition of "genetic loss". P.S: What's this about horses and split hooves?
But it's so easy to find examples of genetic loss. I'd really have to work to find examples of genetic gain. Yeah, being right sometimes involves work.
Genetic gain. Continue. I did continue. I asked --- if gaining these genes through lateral gene transfer is "genetic gain", is it not also "genetic gain" when they originally arise through mutation? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
What was your point exactly? That you can produce a badly constructed google search? Or that you can't talk about molecular biology coherently?
The one result was from what you yourself posted, I hardly see that as being a result for ID. I could make a cross board spam attack putting "Evolution facts are found" all over the internet, would that suddenly mean evolutionary theory was winning? Are you standing by the idea that there are amino acids in DNA/nucleotides? Or would you agree that what you wrote was at best badly phrased. Persumably what you meant was the amino acid sequences coded for by particular sequences of nucleotides. TTFN, WK P.S. Do you use 'BAM' to denote when you have said something particularly stupidly?
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2325 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
dennis780 writes:
Well, when I search for "evolution is a fact", I get 4,920,000 hits. When I look for "ID is a fact", I get 633,000 hits. Guess you got some while to go. Or you could realise that this is a bogus argument.
quote:Thats funny. Cause I just searched this: "Evolution facts are found" in google...and got this: No results found for "Evolution facts are found". This is because if you put quotes on, google will only search for websites with that exact phrase. Just because I'm an ID, doesn't mean I don't know how google works. At least your search found one result. ID =1Evo =0 and don't follow conspiracy theories...partly why I don't accept evolution. BAM.
So, you follow the conspiracy theory that evolution is a conspiracy? BAM BAM. Or something...
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2507 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Try this for a good search:
"22 year old experiment", equalling 1 million years of human life, and ONE genetic mutation has occurred." Then try this, and click on the first result.
"600 does not equal ONE!" You should now be on my post Message 201, which you avoided replying to. Do you still think that 600 = ONE? When you've answered, I'll show you plenty of evidence for new information and complexity, which seems to be what you're looking for.
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