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Author Topic:   New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution.
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 126 of 433 (603727)
02-07-2011 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by zi ko
02-07-2011 8:41 AM


Re: An apology due....
emotions in brain are valuable knowledge staff, and it affects genome.
How? What is the mechanism that allows neurons to specifically mutate DNA? What chemical and physical processes do the neurons have that can conceivably produce these changes?

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 Message 125 by zi ko, posted 02-07-2011 8:41 AM zi ko has replied

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 128 of 433 (603794)
02-07-2011 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by zi ko
02-07-2011 1:17 PM


Re: An apology due....
epigenetis give some of the answers you ask for.
No it doesn't. How do nerves cause changes in histone packaging and DNA methylation in gametes? What physical or chemical processes do neurons possess that would allow them to make these changes?
only a superscientist could answer all such questions.
It only takes a BS meter to tell us that you are making stuff up. It takes a sloppy scientist to push ideas that have no merit and no evidence.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 152 of 433 (621198)
06-24-2011 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by zi ko
06-23-2011 12:35 PM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
The problem is not if the system 'directs' mutation in a weak or strong sense, but if it does exist or not. You can deny it. But then you should bring evidence against it. If it exists, we can next discuss how strong or weak its effect might be.
Let's use the lottery as a non-biological example. Let's say that those facing economic hardship are more likely to buy lottery tickets. By doing so, they increase their chance of becoming rich and solving their economic woes. Does this make the results of the lottery "directed"? Does this make the lottery non-random?
If you accept it then you have to explain why a useful mechanism in protozoa has to be excluded( enriched of course) in metazoa.
Because mutations that are beneficial in somatic cells are not transferred to germ cells, those that are used produce the next generation. For example, there is a "directed" mutation system in B-cells that are responsible for producing antibodies. In this system the genes responsible for producing antibodies experience higher rates of random mutations. These mutated antibodies are then displayed on the surface of the cell. When an antigen binds to the antibody the cell is stimulated to replicate and produce more antibody. This process is repeated in each generation of B-cell resulting a population of antibodies that have passed through a process of mutation and selection. However, none of these evolved antibody genes are passed on to the next generation. They occur in somatic cells only, not in the germ line cells (sperm and ova). Each individual has to start from scratch.
This is not the case in bacteria. A mutation that confers resistance to antibiotics or bacteriophage, for example, are passed on to the next generation because there is no separation between somatic and germline cells.
What you need to keep in mind is how evolution affects a reproducing population over time, not a single individual during its lifetime.

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 Message 151 by zi ko, posted 06-23-2011 12:35 PM zi ko has replied

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 Message 153 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 11:53 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 154 of 433 (621775)
06-28-2011 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by zi ko
06-25-2011 11:53 AM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
But ithink, i am not sure, B-cells in next generations are more prone to produce antibodies, specally if the reason of this production is repeated again and again.
B-cells are terminally differentiated. B-cells never become sperm/ova cells, therefore the mutations that occur in B-cells after birth can not be passed on to offspring. It is that simple. You do not pass on your B-cells to your offspring.
Otherwise this 'experience' will be in vain and it could be againnst nature;s economy law and so illogical.
Your argument that biology must follow your made up laws of economy are illogical. You can not replace reality with how you think reality should work. In the reality I live in, B-cells do not become sperm, nor are they passed on to the next generation. If you are looking for effeciency in biology then you are going to be left wanting.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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 Message 153 by zi ko, posted 06-25-2011 11:53 AM zi ko has replied

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 Message 155 by zi ko, posted 07-04-2011 5:56 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 162 of 433 (622798)
07-06-2011 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by zi ko
07-04-2011 5:56 PM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
Here is where my theory offers a different answer:
Neural system being the intermediator, passes information between sperm/ova and somatic cells .
That's not an answer. That is a made-up fantasy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by zi ko, posted 07-04-2011 5:56 PM zi ko has replied

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 Message 164 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 2:53 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 167 of 433 (622904)
07-07-2011 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by zi ko
07-07-2011 2:53 AM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
Epigenetics give us important clues. Environment affects peri-genome. So there is the mechanism for it.
None of which involves the neural system interacting with germ cells.
Also, epigenetics does not change the DNA sequence and is therefore incapable of producing the differences seen between species. For example, the differences between humans and chimps is not due to different patterns of DNA methylation and histone packaging. The differences between humans and chimps is due to a difference in DNA sequence.
Do you think that neural system does not participate on it?
We have been waiting for you to present a mechanism by which this can happen. Turning your fantasies into questions does not stop them from being fantasies.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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 Message 164 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 2:53 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 3:08 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 176 of 433 (623054)
07-07-2011 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by zi ko
07-07-2011 3:08 PM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
You surely can't denay what epigenetics have proved that environment affects perigenome.
Do you understand what epigenetics does? Can epigenetics explain the differences between humans and chimps? If not, then your "theory" is useless for explaining the differences between species, and is in no way a valid replacement for the current theory of evolution which does explain the differences.
How is it being done if not by neural system?
How is it being done by the neural system? The burden of proof is on you.
So Epigenetics is where you should adress at, when you are asking for details about the mechanism.
Your mechanism is incapable of producing the differences seen between species.
But are there any data that prove that emotionally emriched same information passed to genome over millions of years , can't affect this sequence, either directly by causing mutations or by affecting other mechanisms ?(engineering systems, HGM ect).
Shouldn't you find this out before claiming that this data does exist? Usually, a theory starts with observations. So where are the observations?

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 Message 170 by zi ko, posted 07-07-2011 3:08 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 1:49 AM Taq has replied
 Message 181 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 1:58 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 178 of 433 (623073)
07-08-2011 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by zi ko
07-08-2011 1:23 AM


Re: Neural Nada
Could life style f.e be "known" to genome under inspection otherwise than by neural tissue intervention?
You are shifting the burden of proof. You are the one claiming that neural tissue guides mutation in germ line cells. Either evidence this claim or withdraw it.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 180 of 433 (623076)
07-08-2011 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by zi ko
07-08-2011 1:49 AM


Re: Barbara Wright redux
My "theory"expains these differences between species by evolution through INFORMATION, mutations and natural selection/
Through what information? Be specific, include data, and include mechanisms.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 182 of 433 (623080)
07-08-2011 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by zi ko
07-08-2011 1:58 AM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
When i see a car working , i suppose i don't need to relate how is is working to be able to say that cars exist.
You would need to relate how a car produces rainbows if you claimed that cars are responsible for rainbows.
You claim that neural cells guide mutations in germ cells. Either evidence the claim or withdraw it.

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 Message 181 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 1:58 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 194 of 433 (623500)
07-11-2011 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by zi ko
07-10-2011 2:06 PM


Re: More Nada
Not only. Tthey prove also that the authors believe that life style (obviously by neural system- how else it coulld be done?) can affect epigenome areas. It is simple as that.
Once again, epigenetics does not explain the difference between species. The theory you are trying to replace DOES explain the differences between species. You seem to have a problem here.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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 Message 191 by zi ko, posted 07-10-2011 2:06 PM zi ko has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 195 of 433 (623501)
07-11-2011 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by zi ko
07-08-2011 5:53 AM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
May i suppose that you accept there is a car (the mechanism that i need not to prove its existance)?
No one is doubting that empathy exists. What we doubt is that empathy produces specific and beneficial changes in the DNA sequence of sperm and ova.
Using my analogy above, we are not doubting the existence of cars or rainbows just as we do not doubt mutations or empathy. What we doubt is the claim that cars CAUSE rainbows just as we doubt that empathy guides mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by zi ko, posted 07-08-2011 5:53 AM zi ko has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 197 of 433 (623503)
07-11-2011 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by zi ko
07-11-2011 1:41 AM


Re: DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
Evidence is not a condition of a theory.
Umm, yes it is.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 222 of 433 (623780)
07-13-2011 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by zi ko
07-13-2011 9:33 AM


Re: "Theory" in Science
In wikipedia' s definition of SCIENTIFIC THEORY not once you find the word evidence
You should learn to use Ctrl+F. A simple search for the word "evidence" would have lead you to this section:
quote:
Essential criteria
The defining characteristic of a scientific theory is that it makes falsifiable or testable predictions. The relevance and specificity of those predictions determine how potentially useful the theory is. A would-be theory that makes no predictions that can be observed is not a useful theory. Predictions not sufficiently specific to be tested are similarly not useful. In both cases, the term "theory" is hardly applicable.
In practice a body of descriptions of knowledge is usually only called a theory once it has a minimum empirical basis, according to certain criteria:
* It is consistent with pre-existing theory, to the extent the pre-existing theory was experimentally verified, though it will often show pre-existing theory to be wrong in an exact sense.
*It is supported by many strands of evidence, rather than a single foundation, ensuring it is probably a good approximation, if not totally correct.
It is sloppy work like this which makes us doubt that your speculations hold merit.
I will agree that many speculations have become solid scientific theories. However, it took evidence and testing for those speculations to become theories. You have not even proposed a testable hypothesis yet, so you have failed to provide testable predictions and evidence which Wikipedia definition states that a scientific theory requires.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 223 of 433 (623781)
07-13-2011 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by zi ko
07-12-2011 1:03 PM


Re: Epigenetic information flow from environment to genome
As for the papers you have cited , i understand that environmental interaction thrugh diet does not require nervous system intervention. But speculating about i inferred that some types of life style require this intervention ,as i suppose you had said as well.
How do differences in lifestyle specifically guide the process of mutagenesis in germ cells so that specific beneficial mutations are produced? You keep forgetting what your speculation actually is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by zi ko, posted 07-12-2011 1:03 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
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