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Author | Topic: Where did the matter and energy come from? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Well, yes, but bear with me here. If the Earth were to sit perfectly still and not orbit the sun, then still we would have seasons. Granted, it would take 27.000 of our current years (since, obviously, there wouldn't be any years any more) to complete 1 cycle, but in those 27.000 years there would be winter, spring, summer and autumn, yes? Hence my comment.
The earth's motion in its orbit does produce the seasons. The earth's axis does not change direction on a yearly basis. Instead we have winter in the northern hemisphere when the earth is in a certain portion of its orbit. The earth's orbit is nearly circular, and the earh's eccentricity plays essentially no role in determining the seasons. As has been pointed out the earth is at perihelion in early January. Sigh. Of course that negates the actual point John 10:10 tried to make.
Ah yes, that as well.
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3023 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Try learning how both orbit & tilt combined produce the earth's seasons in the northern hemisphere.
6(h). Earth-Sun Geometry I wish you all the best if some want to live on planet earth if we were in a Venus or Mars orbit around the sun. I corrected my error concering % of the universe that is unfit for life as we know it, but some did not catch this. I meant much much larger in the smaller direction; i.e., the % of the universe that is unfit for life as we know it is much much smaller than 0.001%. Some believe a Divine Tailor was very inefficient in designing a universe with so much matter & energy waste in it as they interpret waste. But when one does not learn the why, one will always be lost in trying to figure out the how, or in demanding that we who know our Divine Tailor provide acceptable proof to those who have no desire to know the truth.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
John 10:10 writes:
I corrected my error concering % of the universe that is unfit for life as we know it, but some did not catch this. I meant much much larger in the smaller direction; i.e., the % of the universe that is unfit for life as we know it is much much smaller than 0.001%. And as usual, you are still wrong. The percentage of the Universe that is unfit for life is closer to 100% than 0.001%; far more like 99.999999...9% Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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frako Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
An elliptical orbit causes the Earth's distance from the Sun to vary over a year. Yet, this phenomenon is not responsible for the Earth’s seasons! FROM THE SAME PAGE YOU GAVE THE LINK!!!! Edited by frako, : No reason given.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
Ok I jumped to last page and even went back some 2 pages
What i want to know is what does any of this have to do with the matter availibe at the time of big bang. I think it is impossible to do anything but guess at this point. Maybe there is a god who created it and set the wheels in motion to create the universe as we know it??? But maybe all the matter that was needed was the leftovers from a universe that collapsed?? Either way you look at it it still leaves question of where did it all come from.... I don't know if that can be answered...least not in my lifetime...without a huge leap of faith.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
I like the question of this topic. I think it may be one of the few things that cant be explained by any science as of this point in time....But it in no means proves there is a god.....I would think it would be a fundamental question for any advanced race... But one without an answer. Please enlighten me to any scientific theory that would explain where matter came from??
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frako Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
I like the question of this topic. I think it may be one of the few things that cant be explained by any science as of this point in time....But it in no means proves there is a god.....I would think it would be a fundamental question for any advanced race... But one without an answer. Please enlighten me to any scientific theory that would explain where matter came from??
Big bang theory, super string theory, oh and virtual particles pop in and out of exsistance all the time. Edited by frako, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
John 10:10 writes: Try learning how both orbit & tilt combined produce the earth's seasons in the northern hemisphere. 6(h). Earth-Sun Geometry Not only was your original claim that the Earth's orbit produces the seasons incorrect, not only is your second attempt that "both orbit & tilt combined produce the earth's seasons in the northern hemisphere" incorrect, but even the link you cited contradicts you:
Your link writes: An elliptical orbit causes the Earth's distance from the Sun to vary over a year. Yet, this phenomenon is not responsible for the Earth’s seasons!... Note that the angle of the Earth's axis in relation to the ecliptic plane and the North Star on these four dates remains unchanged. Yet, the relative position of the Earth's axis to the Sun does change during this cycle. This circumstance is responsible for the annual changes in the height of the Sun above the horizon. It also causes the seasons, by controlling the intensity and duration of sunlight received by locations on the Earth. ... Note how the position of the North Pole on the Earth's surface does not change. However, its position relative to the Sun does change and this shift is responsible for the seasons. You can see that your link states in three different places in three different ways how the Earth's tilt is responsible for the seasons. If you're trying to make sense about why this should be so, consider that (as your link also states) that the amount of sunlight arriving on the Earth varies by only about 6% during the year due to changes in distance, but the length of the day and the angle of the sun vary far more dramatically and hence have a much larger impact, and this is the result of tilt. In the summer the length of the day becomes much longer, 24 hours long as you approach the poles. The sun is not only in the sky for a longer period, but it is higher in the sky and beats more directly downward. And of course the reverse is true in winter, with the days becoming shorter and eventually disappearing altogether as you approach the poles, and the sun sits very low in the sky and only strikes obliquely.
John 10:10 writes: I corrected my error concering % of the universe that is unfit for life as we know it, but some did not catch this. I meant much much larger in the smaller direction; i.e., the % of the universe that is unfit for life as we know it is much much smaller than 0.001%. I see. So when you say larger you actually mean smaller. So since you still have this backwards, should we also assume that when you say "unfit" you actually mean "fit"?
Some believe a Divine Tailor was very inefficient in designing a universe with so much matter & energy waste in it as they interpret waste. But when one does not learn the why, one will always be lost in trying to figure out the how, or in demanding that we who know our Divine Tailor provide acceptable proof to those who have no desire to know the truth. Stop pretending to speak for your Divine Tailor. You have no more idea of his ways than you do of the seasons or math or fitness for life. Congratulations for composing an entire post without making one correct statement. You're obviously an acolyte of Buzsaw in the way you make errors and then have to spend the rest of a thread trying to explain them away. Can you explain to me again how you've decided in your mind that you can be wrong in all the details while being right in your conclusions? --Percy Edited by Percy, : Fix error noticed by Huntard.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
[qs=frako][qs]
big bang or anthing you mentioned has nothing to do with the question...Where did it come from... I asked for scientific theroy on where matter comes from...not how the universe started...I have several of Hawkings books...breif history of time is is a good one, but it does not adress where all the original matter came from. I do know the First law of thermodynamics says Matter cannot be created or destroysd?? well that cant be 100% correct. I have read why there isnt more anti-matter in our universe, but nothing that explains what led up to big bang...where did this energy/matter come from...did it all just pop into exsistence as a lot of virtual particles that interacted to make our universe?? if so then why and where did they come from???
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Percy writes:
I think you mean his initial claim that the Erth's orbit produces the seasons. Because first of all he never made the claim that it was the Earth's tilt and second, the claim that the Earth's tilt produces the seasons is, of course, quite correct.
Not only was your original claim that the Earth's tilt produces the seasons incorrect...
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hello Fearandloathing, welcome to EVC.
fearandloathing writes:
As of now there is no definite answer to your questions. There are particle theorist doing experiments in the LHC trying to rewind the clock back to T=0. But just "poping" into existence is one theory. What some scientist call a quantum fluctuation. It is not easy trying to wrap ones mind around the conditions prior to the big bang. It is almost counter intuitive to us humans to fathom anything prior the emergence of space/time. ...did it all just pop into existence as a lot of virtual particles that interacted to make our universe?? if so then why and where did they come from??? F&L writes: The why suggest there is a reason. There very well may not be a why. The why in other words is more of a religious/philosophical question. The "where" would indicate a co ordinance, and since there was no space prior to T=0, there is no where. ....if so then why and where did they come from???Keep reading and investigating!
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.4
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Hi FandL.
big bang or anthing you mentioned has nothing to do with the question...Where did it come from... I asked for scientific theroy on where matter comes from...not how the universe started...I have several of Hawkings books...breif history of time is is a good one, but it does not adress where all the original matter came from. I do know the First law of thermodynamics says Matter cannot be created or destroysd?? well that cant be 100% correct. I have read why there isnt more anti-matter in our universe, but nothing that explains what led up to big bang...where did this energy/matter come from...did it all just pop into exsistence as a lot of virtual particles that interacted to make our universe?? if so then why and where did they come from??? Your confusion is well-founded. A little clarification might help, though. Time is a dimension, just like length, or width, or height. We experience time a bit differently, but that's not a problem for physics. Every moment of time is just like a location in one of the spacial dimensions. If I draw a ray: *--------------------------> we can see that there is a beginning point, and the ray stretches on into infinity. If we call the beginning point "0," we can use distance measurements to locate specific points on the ray. Time is very similar. There is a first moment, T=0, and then time moves on in just one direction, possibly forever but at least until today. There is no moment of time before T=0, just like there is no point on the ray above further to the left than the "*". Asking "what came before the "*" on that ray" just wouldn't make sense - it would be like asking what point is further North than the North Pole. It's a question that displays a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept. "Creation" and "destruction" are concepts that require at minimum two locations in time: a location where the object in question does exist, and a location where it does not. To "create" something, it has to not exist before it's created, right? To destroy something, it has to exist before it is destroyed. What happens, then, when there is no before? 100% of the mass/energy of the Universe has existed at every single moment of time, all the way back to T=0. All of it. It has existed in different forms (in the first moments there was just as much total mass/energy as there is today, it was simply not in the form of matter; that came a little bit later, and we understand that process decently well). So...where did the mass and energy of the Universe come from? It's always been here, for the entirety of time, at every single moment. It was not created, because that would require it to have not existed, and we know that all of the total mass/energy has existed for every moment beginning with the beginning of time itself. If you look at a ball, where on the surface of the ball does the ball begin? Can you identify it? Is there a point where there is no surface, and then the surface comes into existence? Is there a point where it ends? Human beings are used to concepts of beginnings and endings, because we both begin and end. We're familiar with the concept of causality, where every event is the effect of a cause, and every cause is the effect of an earlier cause and so on. But what happens when there is no earlier time for a cause to exist in? Physics challenges us to comprehend the Universe from a different frame of reference. Our intuitive understandings of motion and gravity and time and space just don't always apply in reality. Newton's description of gravity works fine here on Earth at the scales we're used to, but astronomers noticed that Newtonian gravity was inaccurately predicting the motion of some planets; Einstein's version corrected the inaccuracy, even though Newtonian mechanics work fine in our everyday lives and are more intuitive for us. To understand the beginning of the Universe, even as a layperson, you need to accept the fact that what we'll find is not necessarily intuitive from a normal human perspective, and that the Universe is likely more fantastic, amazing, and surprising than we tend to think.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
I understand everything after T=0,in a simplified fashion even with my limited understanding as a layperson. I guess it is just hard for me to wrap my mind around not knowing what set of circumstances led up to it.
As I understand time it is relative to the place it is being measured. Going near the speed of light for a period of time would cause a space traveler a problem coming home. His time relative to ours was slowed down so that it appears to him he was gone much longer than the amount of time that passed on his ship. The longer you go then the greater the difference. Not time travel, but to the traveler it appears so. Sorry...got off topic a bit. As I said earlier, Thermodynamics says no matter can be created or destroyed and this fits with the overall model. Thanks for input I will read more after few aspirin!!! lol.
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DBlevins Member (Idle past 3804 days) Posts: 652 From: Puyallup, WA. Joined: |
...so that it appears to him he was gone much longer than the amount of time that passed on his ship. I think you mean that on Earth, more time would have transpired than it would have for the spacecraft and its crew. Going off memory here, but a spaceship and crew leaving Earth to travel to the center? of our galaxy and then back to Earth would take it 20 years. On Earth, though, 2 million years would have passed.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4173 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
DBlevins writes:
Thats what I meant. My wording was not as clear as it should have been, sorry. ...so that it appears to him he was gone much longer than the amount of time that passed on his ship. I think you mean that on Earth, more time would have transpired than it would have for the spacecraft and its crew. Going off memory here, but a spaceship and crew leaving Earth to travel to the center? of our galaxy and then back to Earth would take it 20 years. On Earth, though, 2 million years would have passed.It would appear to traveler that much more time had passed at home than had passed for him on the ship.
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