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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4258 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Born that way. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4258 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined:
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Born That Way. More of the same in the debate of the are people born gay? I think it the answer is so obvious, and people are indeed born homosexual, but that is my bias.
I often hear from people at church that God created "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" and then they use the verse Matthew 19: 4-5 which states (NIV) Haven’t you read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate. I find it amazing that they use this tiny part of Matthew, from a passage where Christ speaks about divorce, yet if one was to read further on in the SAME passage I think it is plain to see that Jesus makes reference to the fact that some people are born gay, and this does not apply to them. Further along in the passage one can read Matthew 19: 11-12 which reads: 11 Jesus replied, Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by othersand there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it. Here I get someone telling me what a eunuch is, the issue I have is that everyone understands that there were in that time people who were made eunuchs (technically today if you had a vasectomy i think you are a eunuch as well), and there is agreement that eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven are celibates, and priests who choose to devote themselves to God over women, but eunuchs that were born that way somehow means the 1% of the male population born with testicular issues. I think it is obvious that Jesus is talking about men who are not attracted to women sexually. I think reading of the whole passage is also important to grasp the context of the conversation. The whole conversation is Matthew 19 1-12. WWJD? Jesus would love and accept gay people, because they were born that way. Here is the main problem (I think): If god created us and the world, then god created gay people, if you denounce gay people then you are denouncing god and his creation. Therefore people who are into the god creation idea cannot under any circumstance even think it is possible for homosexuals to be born that way, or else they will realize it is not God who discriminates, but them who are the discriminators, and they are denying God's creation.
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subbie Member (Idle past 1284 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
What leads you to conclude that there's no environmental factors at play?
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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frako Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
What leads you to conclude that there's no environmental factors at play? Well it could be possible to fuck up a child so bad he would think he is gay but he would just be confused not actually gay. But i think there could be something in the food that could effect your child hormones that are sometimes added to livestock so they get fatter faster Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4258 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
the low percentage of the population that would be considered a eunuch due to environmental factors. I do not think Jesus would have to mention really minute details and explain it to a T, in this short passage. he was giving the exceptions, but not going over every little one. This is not the only time in the New Testament that eunuchs (gay people) are mentioned.
I know it takes a little thinking outside the box, but if that kind of thinking wasn't required then why send Christ in the 1st place?
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined:
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I'm sorry, but what you're saying is kinda ridiculous. What about sociopathic children? Some would argue that they were 'born that way'.
Being born that way isn't a valid reason to be accepted and tolerated. But I guess you're on the right track as far as finding tolerance instead of what you were like before.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Jesus would love and accept gay people, because they were born that way.
What you've quoted from the Bible and concluded would be ok if there wasn't specific mention in the Bible against homosexuality. Working from memory only, I believe Deuteronomy says commiting the act of homosexuality should be punished by stoning. And if I'm not mistaken, Jesus says to continue to obey all of his Father's laws. So if Jesus was obeying his Father's laws, he would have to condemn homosexuals to death by stoning. I would imagine the idea of homosexuals getting married would be unacceptable to him as well. Jesus would see homosexuality as the racist of the South saw interracial unions. - Oni
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
onifre writes: So if Jesus was obeying his Father's laws, he would have to condemn homosexuals to death by stoning. I would imagine the idea of homosexuals getting married would be unacceptable to him as well. Jesus would see homosexuality as the racist of the South saw interracial unions. Yet Jesus stopped the stoning of an adulteress. I think your reading of what he meant by his Father's laws is too simplistic."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Yet Jesus stopped the stoning of an adulteress. Well he was still human. I was just applying AE's logic of how he interpreted the passages he quoted to other passages. I don't personally think Jesus hated or would have stoned homosexuals, but one-dimention interpretations of the Bible could lead to concluding he did hate them.
I think your reading of what he meant by his Father's laws is too simplistic. So was AE's, and that was my point. - Oni
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Sounds good.
I was born straight and my mum is gay so I guess nature beat nurture for me. Edited by Larni, : No reason given.The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong. Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.
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Son Member (Idle past 3859 days) Posts: 346 From: France,Paris Joined: |
I think you can still be consistent with "born that way". Meaning that humans are not supposed to judge God's creation but only make it so that their society works as best as possible. Meaning that prisons and the like would be used for prevention/isolation/rehabilitation and we would leave judging(in the moral sense), condamning and punishing to God.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I was born straight and my mum is gay so I guess nature beat nurture for me. Immaculate conception? - Oni
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined:
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Immaculate conception? Bow down to the me, Jesus's younger brother!The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong. Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4258 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
I'm sorry, but what you're saying is kinda ridiculous. What about sociopathic children? Some would argue that they were 'born that way'. Being born that way isn't a valid reason to be accepted and tolerated. But I guess you're on the right track as far as finding tolerance instead of what you were like before. You are missing the point. This is about gay people being born gay, and Jesus talking about it, and not condemning it. This is not using being born that way as a reason for acceptance and toleration. This is Christ talking about heterosexual marriage and divorce, and these people are the exception to the rules: Gay Men, Infertile Men, and Priests.Not sure what you were insinuating I was like before, but that has nothing to do with this topic anyway.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4258 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
What you've quoted from the Bible and concluded would be ok if there wasn't specific mention in the Bible against homosexuality. Working from memory only, I believe Deuteronomy says commiting the act of homosexuality should be punished by stoning. The bible is full of contradictions. You bring up the old testament to counter the new. If the old was good enough, then the new would not be needed, and there would be no Christians, but alas that was/is not the case. Are you sure you don’t mean Leviticus?
So if Jesus was obeying his Father's laws, he would have to condemn homosexuals to death by stoning. If Joseph was to obey God’s laws he should have stoned Mary as she became pregnant not by him (with Jesus), while they were married. I see this like most things: either you are a letter or the law who takes the bible literally, and uses it like a textbook on life, OR you are a spirit of the law who see’s the bible as a moral and mythological guide that you need to read and interpret for yourself. The old testament is very rule/law based, but filled with prophesy and impossible stories that we have almost no luck in backing up with evidence, and I am surprised you used it to challenge me here. To me not everything is cut and dry, black and white. Jesus was human as well, and understood the gray areas of life. Only he and his mother were perfect, yet it did not disqualify everyone else from his glory.
I would imagine the idea of homosexuals getting married would be unacceptable to him as well. The design of marriage in the bible is to join a man and a women together to raise a family and follow the God. The marriage of two adults who love each other who cannot produce offspring, is really not a marriage as far as the bible is concerned. As long as the 2nd couple remained faithful and loyal to The God, I do not think that Jesus would have a problem with them at all.
Jesus would see homosexuality as the racist of the South saw interracial unions. What evidence do you have of this? I already posted how I think Jesus thought of homosexuals, you can read it above. He classified them as not being bound by having to get married and follow the same path as heterosexuals. The Romans had gay marriage, probably by the time of Jesus so I am sure if it was so abhorrent they would have stated something about it in the new testament. Jesus loved everyone, and he loves you. Here is more new testament on homosexuals IMO. In Matthew 8: 5-13 (a centurion has faith) Jesus blesses and heals a gay couple.Here is the text from NIV 5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 Lord, he said, my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly. 7 Jesus said to him, Shall I come and heal him? 8 The centurion replied, Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it. 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would. And his servant was healed at that moment. NOTE: this is also recorded in Luke 7 In English it reads servant in the original Greek the word is pais, which can mean boy, son, servant, or a particular kind of servant (a younger male lover). If you are familiar with the ancient Greek pederasty (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece) you will notice the greek word paiderastia (παιδεραστία) [love of boys] which is a compound of pais [child, boy] and erastes [lover]. Of course this is interpretation and it is my own, but I am trying to show why I feel this way. You have to think outside the box a bit. You have to realize that in ancient times the culture was different. Wives were basically purchased, and were owned by the husband, if the husband wanted a male wife then he purchased a Pais, as the centurion in this passage did. It was part of the culture of the time, and was acceptable. I see no reason why if Jesus was against men taking a male-wife, that he did not speak out against it. Also if it was such a horrific thing, then why would he heal the Male-Wife of this centurion based upon his faith alone? To me it is pretty clear, and it says that Jesus was not against men marrying each other as long as they were faithful. Jesus isn't half as bad as you think he is, I just think that haters are the one that told you about Christ, you saw the hypocrisy of their hate and it turned you away from his love. Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given. Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
So, let's throw the gays into prison.
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