The Awesome Obama Thread II

As an outsider Obama's presidency to date seems like a disappointment. But as an outsider it also seems that the expectations he fostered during his election campaign were, with hindsight (and frankly even without hindsight for those with a less idealistic disposition), impossible to meet.As one who definitely does have an idealistic disposition I would have definitely voted for the guy if I was American. As an idealist I feel very betrayed by the Obama presidency despite the fact that I am not American.Obama's eloquence and superficial high sounding idealism gave people what they wanted to hear after years of Bush and neo-con lunacy. The whole world breathed a huge fucking sigh of relief and hope when he got elected. Intelligent. Articulate. Seemingly in tune with global attitudes to American imperialism, acts of torture and the balance between liberty and security. His economic strategy sounded sane rather than ideological. His approach to international relations conciliatory and inspirational rather than antagonistic and isolationist. A "modern leader for the modern world" and all that sort of high minded sounding jazz.So what went wrong? Well as an outsider I can't give you the same in depth answer to that question as the likes of Crashfrog or Rahvin. The honest answer is that I don't really know. But I can, and am going to, give you my impressions. For what they are worth.Obama turned out not to be an idealist so much as an overly pragmatic career politician willing to compromise on pretty much everything that many of those who voted (or supported from afar) felt was uncompromisable. There seems to be no issue on which he will take an absolute stand.And yet he is faced with the most lunatic, fringe-crazy Republican opposition probably ever. To compromise with them seems to mean relentlessly giving in to the near-crazy. When only one side will compromise it becomes a one-sided game. And Obama seems to always be on the not-really-winning side on every significant issue.In some ways I feel for the guy. It seems like he wanted to genuinely do something radical on US healthcare. But the complex US politics of the situation, the rise of the crazies in the form of the tea-party and the realities of governing in a lobbying fundraising world seemed to put paid all to easily to any genuinely idealistic notions Obama might have held.And the same can be said for so many issues. Guantanamo. Iraq. Bush tax cuts. Etc. etc.I'm no expert. My opinion in many respects isn't worth shit on this. But I suspect that a large number of discontented Obama supporters both in the US and elsewhere might share my same feelings of disappointment and agree with my (admittedly rather vague) notions as to why that is.Feel free to ignore......

Pragmatically I would still vote for Obama over the alternatives. But as an idealist I would have to grit my teeth and close my eyes as I did so.All of which is entirely moot because I don't get to vote in your elections anyway.How do you feel Phat? What did you vote last time? Why? What will you vote this time? Why?Whatever perspective one holds surely all can see that much of Obama's shine has gone?

Does your union ever advise you to vote anything other than Democrat?Here in the UK the Labour party (which I guess is vaguely analogous to the Democrat party all cultural and historical aspets and differences vaguely taken into account) is largely funded by the unions.Is it different over there?

I don't feel qualified enough to agree or disagree with much of your post. So I'll just say I that I enjoyed your reply. Some might say the price of collective intelligence is indecision.....

No politician campaigning for election is going to get too upset about being portrayed as a man of principles and ideals are they? When bandying around the slogan Yes we can the Obama campaign team didn’t feel the need to asterisk it with a qualifier such as Sometimes. Partially. If at all. And even then only to an extent dictated by political realities rather than any silly high minded principles.Now you can blame the Republican propaganda machine for caricaturing Obama as some sort of Messiah. But I would suggest you are giving them too much credit if you think that is the sole reason for people’s disillusionment. You could blame the world’s media for getting overly hyperbolic about his ability to implement significant change. You could blame people like me for being nave and failing to appreciate the sort of intricacies and barriers that the US political system imposes on it’s elected president and his ability to implement significant change.But whoever you blame and however you look at it Obama was elected on a wave of optimism and expectation that has not been met. There are a lot of people who do feel disappointed. And I don’t think you can entirely divorce that disappointment from the high minded rhetoric flying around at the time of his election or tell people that they are somehow wrong to feel a bit betrayed.

Now you are just being silly and facetious.I never expected Obama to be a Messiah. What I naively thought was that Obama would be a politician who would shape the political agenda rather than be continually thwarted by it.Honestly - Are you happy with the Guantanamo situation, the healthcare bill, the extension of the Bush tax cuts, the position of Iraq etc. etc. etc....?Is this what you hoped for when Obama got the presidency?Can you honestly not see why people might be disappointed? Do you honestly think that any disappointment is a problem of their own making rather than anything at all to do with what the Obama presidency has actually delivered?Ultimately the proof is in the pudding - If Obama's last campaign was as down to Earth and pragmatic as you say it was the we should all expect a repeat of it this year.Personally I expect a lot less of the "Yes we can" principled idealism and a lot more "But it would be even worse under the other lot" type arguments.....But I guess we'll see.

I feel like I'm talking to a member of Obama's campaign team!! Is there any area where you think the Obama administration failed or even underachieved at all?Do you think the Obama presidency will go down in history as one of those that future Democrat presidents will aspire to emulate?Do you actually even accept that there are feelings of disillusionment amongst many who supported Obama last time (both in the US and around the world) at all? If so what do you think the source of this disillusionment might be?And in terms of the proof being in the pudding - Do you think Obama will get more, less or about the same number of votes in the next election as he got in the last one?AbE - But I have to add that I really enjoyed your post and have cheered it accordingly.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Which I will read with interest.But I'll probably leave you and Crash to slug it out.Probably.....

So it's been one of the most successful administrations ever, blameless for any of the ongoing problems and faultless in everything it has done? Furthermore you think the Obama administration has actually exceeded expectation. Yet deflated expectation and disillusionment persists. Well on one hand you accuse me of having politically unrealistic expectations but on the other hand you shot me down when I suggested that Obama might have been thwarted from doing what he wanted to do by political realities. What do you think Obama wanted to do that he couldn't do because he lacked the power to enact it?And where do you think lots of now disillusioned people got the silly idea that he might actually try and do these things? Just that? Do you rememeber "Obamamania" at all? Do you remember the "Yes we can" speeches? Do you rememeber the sense of inspiration last time?Do you think that will be remotely repeated in the forthcoming election? If not - Is that just a result of the Federal Reserve bank's inaction? What other factors?

Then what can we "blame" the Obama administration for and what "faults" can we ascribe to it?Because everything you have said so far seems to indicate perfection on the part of the Obama administration. I didn't think "perfection" is what had been achieved by the Obama administration until I started questioning you about it.Based on your answers in this thread I am starting to think that "perfection" is a suitable description of what has been accomplished.........Like I said - You should work for Obama's campaign team!!Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

OK.Then why do so many people feel so disenchanted and disillusioned? What is it that they expected? And what raised those expectations? Was Obama's last election campaign grounded in pragmatism and reality (as Crash suggests) or did it contribute to the "wizard" expectations that have failed to be met? Will Obama invoke similar inspiration and support in the forthcoming election? If not why not? What has changed? On what basis were expectations raised and on to what extent can we say that the Obama administration is divorced from A) The existence of those expectations and B) The failure to meet those expectations?

I am well used to politicians not living up to expectations. You are talking to a man who voted for Tony Blair. What I don't really understand is your position that Obama has met every expectation that anyone who was inspired by his previous election campaign could reasonably have expected.His previous election campaign fostered a great deal of false hope. False hope which you seem, frankly, in denial about. Well finally a chink in the Obama defenders armor!! What personally disappointed you specifically about the Obama administration? Well because more was expected and hoped for. Are ALL of those expectations and hopes completely unfounded and able to be blamed on various personal misconceptions about political realities?Or did Obama and his campaign team bring some of this present disillusionment upon themselves? Either through failing to deliver what they thought they could or giving the impression that they could deliver more than they knew they would be able to?Whilst your staunch defence of the Obama administration is eloquent and in many ways persuasive it is just too frikkin all-encompassing to be realistic.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Combine that with the false hope and inspiration that his last campaign fostered and I am willing to agree. As I said back in my initial reply Message 16

Isn't that the problem? He did create real hope. And those hopes have not been met? But when those he is compromising with (i.e. the Republican crazy element) are not adults why would this strategy work?

But how much better? How much can one compromise before betraying the founding principle at stake? That is surely the source of disappointment and disillusionment that many legitimately feel?