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Author Topic:   What's the problem with teaching ID?
Genomicus
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Posts: 851
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 226 of 337 (664934)
06-06-2012 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mark24
02-28-2006 7:42 PM


Regardless, it is implicit that ID must invoke the supernatural at some stage.

Really? Where?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mark24, posted 02-28-2006 7:42 PM mark24 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:26 PM Genomicus has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 227 of 337 (664935)
06-06-2012 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 7:22 PM


There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Unless ID actually proposed a model to show the method the asserted designer uses to influence evolution, the answer is either magic or supernatural.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 7:22 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 7:48 PM jar has responded
 Message 230 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 7:51 PM jar has responded

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 851
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 228 of 337 (664936)
06-06-2012 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by jar
06-06-2012 7:26 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Designing the initial genomes to bias evolution in planned trajectories is just such a way to influence the course of evolution (myself and others have discussed this before on this site, if you will recall).

And, when it comes to molecular machinery that may have been present in the LUCA, such as bacterial flagella, then all the nanotechnologists would simply have to engineer the flagellar parts in the genomes.


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 Message 227 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:51 PM Genomicus has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 229 of 337 (664937)
06-06-2012 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 7:48 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
You have NEVER presented the model or method the asserted designer uses influence evolution.

Until you present that model, whether it is little tweezers or a John Deere front loader, you have presented nothing but word salad.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 7:48 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 7:53 PM jar has responded
 Message 232 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 7:54 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 851
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 230 of 337 (664938)
06-06-2012 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by jar
06-06-2012 7:26 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Just to make my position clear, by the way:

I don't advocate the teaching of ID in schools, in any way whatsoever. That'd be the wrong thing to do. But it's not because (a) ID invokes the supernatural (it doesn't), or (b) it's pseudoscience, etc. It's because ID is not sufficiently developed to be a rigorous hypothesis or theory. There are plenty of hypotheses out there that aren't nearly as rigorous as the modern evolutionary synthesis, and these shouldn't really be in the school room, and the same holds ID. It's silly to push for ID in schools when there are dozens of other equally rigorous hypotheses out there (not all in biology, of course). That's really why I'm in this forum: I'm trying to glean ideas from all of you to steadily develop the ID hypothesis.


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 Message 227 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:55 PM Genomicus has responded

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 851
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 231 of 337 (664939)
06-06-2012 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
06-06-2012 7:51 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
You have NEVER presented the model or method the asserted designer uses influence evolution.

It's called engineering a genome with biological parts that will later be used by future organisms, and evolutionary processes will build on these parts, shaping the course of evolution. There are other mechanisms here, too, like cytosine deamination, but I'll let that discussion wait for another day.

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


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 Message 229 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:57 PM Genomicus has responded

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 851
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 232 of 337 (664940)
06-06-2012 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by jar
06-06-2012 7:51 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
You have NEVER presented the model or method the asserted designer uses influence evolution.

It's called engineering a genome with biological parts that will later be used by future organisms, and evolutionary processes will build on these parts, shaping the course of evolution. There are other mechanisms here, too, like cytosine deamination, but I'll let that discussion wait for another day.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:51 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 233 of 337 (664941)
06-06-2012 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 7:51 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
The way to develop Intelligent Design is to bring the designer in so that the designer can demonstrate the model of how evolution is influenced.

It really is that simple.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 7:51 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 7:58 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 234 of 337 (664942)
06-06-2012 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 7:53 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Until you present the model showing the method and process the asserted designer uses you have nothing but word salad.

There is no ID model.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 7:53 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:00 PM jar has responded

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 851
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 235 of 337 (664943)
06-06-2012 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by jar
06-06-2012 7:55 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
The way to develop Intelligent Design is to bring the designer in so that the designer can demonstrate the model of how evolution is influenced.

Except that:

a. I have already provided you with a mechanism to shape the course of evolution.

b. What if the designer(s) is extinct?

c. Where do you propose to search for this designer first? Mars? Or the Andromeda galaxy? Possibly, if we sent a man to the Pleiades we'd find the designer? Where in the galaxy do you think we should look for the designers first? I'm curious.

d. We don't need to have the designer(s) present to infer intelligent design.

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


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 Message 233 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:55 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 851
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 236 of 337 (664944)
06-06-2012 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by jar
06-06-2012 7:57 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Until you present the model showing the method and process the asserted designer uses you have nothing but word salad.

Please see my response above, and respond specifically to the points I made. I mean, c'mon, you might want to try to discuss this without repeating the same thing over and over again, without considering exactly what I said.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 7:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:05 PM Genomicus has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 237 of 337 (664945)
06-06-2012 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 8:00 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
The answer is still the same.

It really is that simple.

a. I have already provided you with a mechanism to shape the course of evolution.

Bullshit. Totally false. You have NOT presented the method used to front load a genome. How was it done? What tools were used?

b. What if the designer(s) is extinct?

Not my problem. You asserted there is a designer.

c. Where do you propose to search for this designer first? Mars? Or the Andromeda galaxy? Possibly, if we sent a man to the Pleiades we'd find the designer? Where in the galaxy do you think we should look for the designers first? I'm curious.

NMP yet again.

d. We don't need to have the designer(s) present to infer intelligent design.

You can infer any damn thing you want. Pink elephants with green stripes. Again, that's not my problem.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:00 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:08 PM jar has responded
 Message 239 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:10 PM jar has responded

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 851
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 238 of 337 (664946)
06-06-2012 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by jar
06-06-2012 8:05 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Sorry jar, but as usual your tone is aggressive and confrontational, and not really in the spirit of objective discussion, so I'll not discuss this with you. Take care!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:11 PM Genomicus has acknowledged this reply

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 851
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 239 of 337 (664947)
06-06-2012 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by jar
06-06-2012 8:05 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Genome engineering:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome_engineering
This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 06-06-2012 8:14 PM Genomicus has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 240 of 337 (664948)
06-06-2012 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Genomicus
06-06-2012 8:08 PM


Re: There is nothing to teach about ID other than as an example of pseudoscience.
Sorry you feel that way, but it really is that simple.

Until you can present and defend the model and method, the mechanics, Inept Design will remain just a joke.

There is no ID model.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Genomicus, posted 06-06-2012 8:08 PM Genomicus has acknowledged this reply

  
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