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Author | Topic: Can the Christian God exist without the Bible? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im not sure if we have covered this topic before, but as a Christian who struggles with how literal Biblical interpretation should be, I ask the question: Can Father+Son+Holy Spirit=1 God (The absolute Creator Who is knowable) exist without the Bible? For me, the answer is yes. The question brings up some issues which I propose to discuss, however. Faith and Belief?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: The Bible is a story about folk... that came to know the Christian (or Jewish in the OT) God without the Bible.Did Luke read the Bible? Or Paul? Or Mark? Or Joseph of Arimathea? Or John of Patmos? Or Constantine? Yes, but if Jesus is God incarnate, how would we ever know what He said apart from what He said to us personally? How would we be able to tell Him apart from any spirit..(some fake ones) Look at how you and I disagree About the Gospel of John. To me, even though it clearly differs in many ways from the others, it is the same God saying things from the persepective of another writer who doubtlessly experienced Him. We know that the Gospel of Jar would sound different from the Phatine letters! WE know that if Percy ever wrote a book about the inner unctions, he would need Ben to help him define it better. Would it harmonize with the author within each of us? I know that purpledawn and I disagree over the source of wisdom. She believes that man invented God. I believe that God enlightened man. Would His revealed nature be relative to the individual or would each of us be able to write a book and theoretically have a part of a Bible with similar morality, declaration, and situations as the one now here? Obviously some see it (Him) or "that feeling" differently than others. Proponants of the canons generally agree that the 66 or so books agree with each other in spirit and message...while the gnostics and a few others have a different flavor. Imagine if everyone heard from God (without ever having heard of a Bible or religion) and you would have the same disagreements over interpretations that we have now...only not with any "map" or book to criticize or use to defend a position. The Bible may well be a map to the territory, but many of the words have been internalized and confirmed by me...stories of Jesus, parables, etc. Without any of that to go by, I am quite sure that God still would have reached me as He did...perhaps not in a church, but perhaps in a mall, or a restaurant, or a school. How would I know Him apart from internal awareness? If He talked gently to my inner spirit, would He say a whole new group of teachings or would it be what has been written? Would we folk who felt His inner presence get together, rejoicing initially, then later becoming "human" and serious again...making up rules and starting a religion? This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-21-2005 06:52 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I think that people would go about writing Bibles, starting churches, and doing the same thing at a much faster pace than folk did back in the day before Constantine up till the printing press.
We would have online church blogs...(kinda like how we talk around here...) I like how we do it...because we all never agree that the topic is done and written in stone..we just start new topics! Some say that the early "church fathers" were inspired by a common Spirit and all agreed quite readily. Others say that they merely compromised and agreed on a book selection with only certain points of view established. Knowledge and other beliefs have crept in to the human knowledge pool since then...yet if God exists outside of the Bible, surely He would or could impart a common vision and set of inner morals to a group of people,no?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Funny how the stories from the fundamentalists about the end of the world mention an evil antichrist who abolishes religion and sets up an inner god within each human...either this is evil to be relativistic or the story was to scare people away from thinking for themselves!
Legend writes: How would wisdom prove other wisdom false? If the Bible didn't exist (or was proven to be false), then we wouldn't have a chance of salvation. Its one thing to dismiss a flood story as a parable or legend. It is quite another to disprove Jesus Christ. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-21-2005 07:08 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Of course we discuss stuff. If the early canons were artificially constructed, are you suggesting that God is incapable of bringing any form of agreement that can be quantified? Or...more likely, humans just plain won't agree?
People have not stopped writing about GOD. All the things you mention exist today.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: So how do we know what scripture is? And..without a Bible around, where is this scripture? Written on the heart of simple folk with a kind word, a helping hand, and no hidden agenda? It (the canons) is but a subset of Scripture. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-21-2005 07:23 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I would say that the fact that humans cannot agree is because of our darwinian evolved survival properties...we are born competitors!
Some speculate that Original Sin is itself an evolved concept since its initial inception.(mutation?) I guess that I'm wondering why God allowed us all to feud over the years...some blame Him for not stepping in, but I still think He has given us a way out...if we could handle the humility.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ben writes: If American "Christians" were truly humble,they would not care if they gave everything away to help the world. The world would see us in a new way, and huge military budgets would be unneeded. Jesus said that His kingdom was 1)not of this world and 2) within us. The average one of us wants to gain material blessings and wealth under the assumption that it is Gods provision and blessing. This "humility" is really confusing to me. Can you explain it a bit more?humility \hyu-mi-le-te, yu-\ n : the quality or state of being humble NIV writes: Matt 11:29-30-- Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Jesus, even though He was a man like us, had access to God in a way that meant He could have become a Messianic King and rule the world. Demons had to flee from such power!People would have had the wisest king ever. Solomon sinned often. David sinned often. Dubya?...well, lets not go there! The point is that even Jesus taught humility as a key to Gods blessing. NIV writes:
John 18:36--Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." Ben,referring to Schraff about Faith writes: Many Christians believe that since the Bible says that we were fearfully and wonderfully made, foreknown from the foundations of the world by God Himself, that we are special. However... Faith sees humans as inherently special and different from other creatures.NIV writes: My point is that many, if not most of us modern day Christians are quite afraid to take our servant hood to that level. Just as Peter denied His Lord three times, so too do we struggle with even the simple acts of obedience such as giving up T.V. to go see a sick friend (one we do not naturally like) Heb 2:8-9-- But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
NIV writes: Luke 4:20-21--Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." So...if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it..."Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." What I mean is: If the scripture was fullfilled, would it be fullfilled whether or not anyone heard it?
NIV writes: Rev 2:7--He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. What does it mean to hear? Hear what? And about this "overcoming"? What are we overcoming? Any ideas?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Yes, I realize that this is true. When I started this topic in 2005, I was more literal and churchified than I am today. The question is more of a "what if" question to be discussed philosophically than it is an assertion of a particular belief or ideology.
GOD, the creator, exists or does not exist. The Christian God, or any God, can never be more than some minor reflection of GOD. Religion is no more than a creation of man and can never equal the actuality. Larni writes: By definition, any human description will be assigned to the myth/mythos category. Humans may argue, however, that they have actually experienced or met God, so there will be arguments. The bottom line is that nobody can prove these encounters, though some may argue that radically changed lives and personalities would seem to indicate an agent of change.
The Bible is a record that has been kept and is used a a source of information. At a basic level humans transmit ideas through time by storing them in some physical medium (books, cds, brains etc). The Bible is just a medium of storage. Remove it from history and you still would have belief in gods or a god. All cultures have myths. If you totally remove the myths of any god, no one will have any knowledge of that god. Brian writes: God can exist regardless of the Bible. What you cannot do is use the Bible to 'prove' that there is a God. purpledawn writes: Since the absolute creator existed for humans before the Bible and in places where the Bible did/does not exist, then I would say yes the idea of an absolute creator would still exist. Some people see the need for a Creator to be lacking. They point out that we can theorize the origins and behaviors of the known universe quite well without need of a Creator. Others would claim that, in a sense, humans themselves are creators of descriptive reality and are quite arrogant in so being...seeing as how we are such a minute speck of known intelligence in such a vast universe. Why not a Creator? Thus the philosophical wars commence. Some think that its simply right that we should determine our own place in reality as we measure it, and that there is no evidence for God. My only observatin is that those who want there to be a God usually are more likely to become believers, whereas those who have disdain for such a description don't even like speculating of Gods possible existance.
jar writes: No, there was no Bible...we have discussed this before. There were ideas orally discussed, and there were philosophies and beliefs. SAurely something caused Constantine to convert...legend says it was a dream. Paul certainly got knocked off his high horse as Saul, and became as zealous for his new belief as he was for his old belief. Did Luke read the Bible? Or Paul? Or Mark? Or Joseph of Arimathea? Or John of Patmos? Or Constantine? My question: Was an external source, author, and/or power responsible for these changes or was it all in their own minds?
jar writes: Exactly! This is why I prefer philosophy over dogmatic theology. IF God exists, She surely can communicate with every individual internally. The only problem is how we would know that our epiphanies were of such great meaning so as to cause us to try and convert others.
Unless one is careful the Bible says "This is all there is; thus ends God's communication with man." 2005 Phat writes: if God exists outside of the Bible, surely He would or could impart a common vision and set of inner morals to a group of people,no? I might ask GOD directly IF He wishes to even communicate with us or whether He expects us to handle things on our own, as it is more logical.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Legend writes: but can't an omnipotent GOD communicate with us in a clear and unambiguous manner ? If I can write a document that communicates something in a clear and concise manner why can't She ? If humanity could arrive at a consensus as to who and what GOD is, need it be in any way accurate as to the actuality? As far as communication goes, I would like to believe (and thus DO believe) that GOD is capable of communication, even through the wisdom of others.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: but can mankind understand? In another topic, you mention the following:
quote: Does this mean, in your opinion, that God gives us nothing? The Bible(compilation of books of NIV) says that God gives us grace.We may well not understand GOD, and can only imagine the God we believe in, but many of us believe that He gives us grace. (also mercy, in my opinion.) I can cite a few scriptures, but trust that you have read the Bible.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
so are you implying that GOD is in no way (possibly) interactive with humanity? As i said earlier, Surely something caused Constantine to convert...legend says it was a dream. Paul certainly got knocked off his high horse as Saul, and became as zealous for his new belief as he was for his old belief.
It was a lot more than just building a franchise. These men were not simply interested in making money...there was and is more to life than that. Perhaps it is we who become the decisions we make and the actions we take, but to say that God is not in communion with humanity is radical.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
We can honestly dare say that God is not necessary, but "likely" implies knowing...and we simply don't know. I could just as easily state that God is quite likely, but I would be no closer to the truth than you are.
This topic assumes Gods existence, anyway....which is why it is in Faith & Belief. The likelihood is at worst 50/50
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
since when does probability determine a Deity? Why can't it just be I AM that I AM?
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