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Author | Topic: Rights of Nature? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dronester writes:
Correct. The battle is already lost. At best, we can hope to salvage something from the defeat. ... you are sounding like a defeatist. All I can suggest is blood, sweat, toil and tears. Granting "rights" to nature is certainly not a solution.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8563 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Mother Nature responds on humans proposing Nature's Rights:
Gaia Speaks
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roxrkool Member (Idle past 1017 days) Posts: 1497 From: Nevada Joined: |
The spirit of my thread IS against strip mining, fracking, oil production, etc..
Do you live like a caveman? The fact is, the good life you're living right now is ONLY made possible through mining and oil production.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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I was surprised to receive so many hostile remarks against 'mother nature' . . .
But, I don't think anybody read my links. Giving rights to nature isn't so much about protecting nature, it is about protecting society from companies that poison our environment. With these legal tools in place we can prevent/reduce toxic dumping that corporations feel entitled to do in YOUR backyard. This is bad, does anybody want this in your backyard . . . Garbage Scavengers of the world.
Dumped in Africa: Britain’s toxic wasteChildren exposed to poisonous material in defiance of UK law Dumped in Africa: Britain’s toxic waste | The Independent | The Independent Please reconsider your stance.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What do any of those pictures have to do with Nature having any rights?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
What do any of those pictures have to do with Nature having any rights?
It would help if you read my links in the opening post.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I have read your links in the opening post and as I have said in the past, I see no more evidence that there are any innate Rights of Nature than that there are any innate Human Rights.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Innante rights is one thing. Rights that we might decide to bestow upon humans or anything else becuase we decide it is right or good or nice or helpful or beneficial or whatever are quite another.
jar writes: I have read your links in the opening post and as I have said in the past, I see no more evidence that there are any innate Rights of Nature than that there are any innate Human Rights. Do you agree that we can have human rights without them being 'innate'? Might we decide to do something similar to something else? In this example in this thread that 'something else' would presumably be the planet Earth.... Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
dronester writes:
Then why not skip the silly rhetoric and talk about society's rights?
Giving rights to nature isn't so much about protecting nature, it is about protecting society from companies that poison our environment.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Straggler writes: Do you agree that we can have human rights without them being 'innate'? As long as we also understand that they are not universal, are not innate and are simply bestowed by humans and for human interests.
Straggler writes: Might we decide to do something similar to something else? In this example in this thread that 'something else' would presumably be the planet Earth.... No, I don't believe there can be animal rights or rights of nature. What we can do is proscribe and prescribe human behavior and human rights. The issue and problem is that proscribing or prescribing behavior must be done either voluntarily or though force. If voluntary then those rights are only among those who consent. If through force it devolves to the interests of the most powerful. We can say that within a given society, culture, state some actions are proscribed or prescribed. But such rights exist only within that particular society, culture or state. The US, as an example, could say that it does not have the right to use fracking or burn coal.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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jar writes: No, I don't believe there can be animal rights or rights of nature. Why?
jar writes: As long as we also understand that they are not universal, are not innate and are simply bestowed by humans and for human interests. Bestowed by humans - Sure. But we might place the rights of other things over our own interests and convenience. We might decide that a forest full of 1,000 year old trees shouldn't be demolished to build a shopping mall for example. We might do so on the basis that trees and the animals within the forest (or even some more abstract idea of nature) have "rights" that are more important in principle than the convenience to us of another shopping mall.
jar writes: We can say that within a given society, culture, state some actions are proscribed or prescribed. But such rights exist only within that particular society, culture or state. And you can also say that within that society, culture or state there will be disagreements about the balance between human convenience and the rights that should be accorded to things (e.g. trees, animals, "nature" etc.) that stand in the way of human convenience. Personally I think it would be a sad world if we gave up all notion of anything non-human having the right to exist simply because it was inconvenient. Keep the 1,000 year old trees and build the shopping mall somewhere a bit less convenient I say........
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
RingO writes: Then why not skip the silly rhetoric and talk about society's rights? Ringo, the part of society's rights was fully illustrated in my opening post's links. While I suppose my opening post could have been clearer about this, the reader is also partly responsible for reading the entire post. BTW, one of the reasons I post in the forum is to practice my writing. I think my style is often not as clear as it can be, so any constructive criticisms is welcomed.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Ringo, the part of society's rights was fully illustrated in my opening post's links. I agree that society's righs were illustrated in the links, but perhaps this part of the heavy linking should have been fleshed out in your own words. Because Ringo is right. Calling the rights "Nature's rights" does not seem to be a very useful way of discussing them.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'm not sure that you post does anything but support what I've been saying.
We as humans can proscribe or prescribe our actions. If we convince enough people not to cut down a 1000 year old tree then we do not cut down that tree; but it has nothing to do with whether or not the tree has any rights. The decision is what humans want to do. As humans we can create any argument to support our desired position. That can include creating something as imaginary as "Natural Rights", but that does not mean the tree or hill or mountain or river or animal or view actually has any rights.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: If we convince enough people not to cut down a 1000 year old tree then we do not cut down that tree; but it has nothing to do with whether or not the tree has any rights. It does if we convince them of that on the basis that non-human things have the right to exist (even if their existence is in some way inconvenient to human needs or desires)
Jar writes: That can include creating something as imaginary as "Natural Rights", but that does not mean the tree or hill or mountain or river or animal or view actually has any rights. It has the rights we bestow upon it. As is the case with any rights accorded by any society. That's the point.
jar writes: The decision is what humans want to do. Or in some more noble cases what humans can convince themselves they should do. Foe example consider the great ape project:
quote: Now whilst it might be convenient or even beneficial to humans to treat other apes as objects unworthy of moral consideration there is a growing argument that it is wrong to do so. This an example of conferring rights on non-humans. Would you support that stance? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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