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Author | Topic: The Search for Moderate Islam | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I think I get where Jon is coming from. That is, its not hard to find a proponent of a religion doing or saying pretty much anything. But what about the religion, itself?
Like, I've seen Christian-based groups that go on and on about how great homeopathy is, but I wouldn't say that homeopathy is a tenant of Christianity, or even a part of it. I would argue that homeopathy is not a part of Christianity. I would also argue that moderation is not a part of Islam. Are there any parts of Islam that do teach moderation? Anyways, you've got CAIR, and from their website we get:
quote: Now, are these tenants of Islam? Does Islam teach freedom of religion? Does Islam teach to protect the civil rights of all Americans? Does Islam support domestic policies that promote civil rights, diversity and freedom of religion? Does Islam support equal and complementary rights and responsibilities for men and women? Now, I'm sure you can find a muslim person supporting all those things, but does that stuff stem from the religion? You also quote the Islamic Monthly, but:
quote: So they're not even Islamic...
A moderate Muslim, like moderate Christians do not believe faith should be forced upon others and we should learn to live with people of different religions rather than fighting or coercing them. So, where does Islam teach that?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Christianity doesn't support any of those things. Irrelevant and off topic.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You seem to be setting up equality, etc. as if it is some kind of standard to which Islam "should" adhere if it is to be thought of as "moderate". No, they were claims made by proponents of Islam. I was asking if those claims were made by the religion, itself. A Christian could say that we should explore Mars, but that isn't anything that is inherent to Christianity. A Muslim could say that we should treat women equally, but that isn't anything that is inherent to Islam.
I'm just saying that if nobody else upholds that standard it isn't reasonable to ask it of Islam. That sounds like: "Yes, there is no moderate Islam. But its okay because nobody else is moderate either." If you agree that there is no moderate Islam, then I guess that's all there is to say about that.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
How is that different from proponents of any other religion making the same claims? Its not. I even compared it to a Christian saying we should explore Mars...
Yes it does sound like that - and yes it is "okay" to judge all religions by the same standard. If you want to single out Islam as "not moderate" then you have to play by your own rules. Sure. But if someone started a thread wanting to talk about how Corvettes are so fast, I don't see any point to you bringing up that Ferraris are also fast.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
There is no such thing. How then, does a person become a Mulsim? Do they just make up whatever they want and are then allowed to apply the Islam label to it? Or, as I suspect, is there a dogma and a group of tenets that make up the religion in which people are born, or convert, into?
You know, Islam doesn't exist and can't teach, right? It's just a label for several billion mental conceptions, you realize? What about the Quran?
Are you trying to talk about some ideal Platonic Islam? I was trying to talk about something that is grounded outside of mental conceptions.
So, where does Islam teach that? In many mosques and homes. Wait... "Islam doesn't exist and can't teach"
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I would also argue that moderation is not a part of Islam. Are there any parts of Islam that do teach moderation?
Are you confident that you know the contents of the Koran well enough to say that? I think so. Where are the parts that teach moderation?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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You say "La ilaha illallah, Muhammadun rasulullah " So if an atheist says that then they magically become a muslim?
Look - it'll help me understand what you are looking for with Islam if you find another religion and show me the moderate version. The Jews had all these weird and crazy laws about what you could do and where and when and how and it got really complicated and confusing. Then, Jesus comes along and says that all that stuff isn't necessary and all you have to do is love God and your neighbor. Pretty simple. Pretty moderate. I'd also say that Buddhism is fairly moderate. And despite your position that a religion doesn't teach anything, its not that hard to say: 'Christianity teaches to love your neighbor as yourself' and still make sense out of it. In the same way, we could say: 'Islam teaches blah blah blah' So, if someone where to claim that "Islam teaches moderation", what would they use to support that claim? Now, Christianity has things like YEC's... And just like not selling cakes to gays is not a tenet of Christianity, neither is YEC. Too, Islam has things like Muslims who want equality for women... but that is not a tenet of Islam. So, what are the tenets of Islam that yield moderation?
I mentally replaced 'does Islam' with 'do Muslims' to make the question coherent... That's the conflating that Jon was complaining about. Much like a Christian can say that they shouldn't sell a cake to a gay couple, despite the fact that it is not tenent of Christianity, a muslim could say that women should be equal, despite the fact that it is not a tenent of Islam.
Islam is a mental conception. But they do have tenets that are outlined in a book, no? Where in their tenets is the moderation?
What are you trying to say? Islam is not moderate, despite the fact that there are some muslims who are. Just like: Christianity is not YEC, despite the fact that there are some Christians who are YEC.
If what happened there confuses you, socio-cultural religious studies is probably not the subject you should be pontificating about. You can stop replying to me whenever you want.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Thank you.
Allow me to catch up on some reading and then I'll get back to you. I do have some work I need to get done, though, so it probably won't be until tomorrow.
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