What is a 'true Christian'?

I don't believe that a "true" Christian gets to define themselves merely by claiming to be such. I could also claim to be a true athlete, but one minute on the track, or on the Pitchers Mound, or the Tennis Court would quickly confirm or deny my claim.Our good friend jar always claimed that it was all about what you do as opposed to what you believe and I agree that there is wisdom in that---although an atheist can and does often do as much good for the community--the likes of feeding and clothing needy people and/or volunteering in a variety of humanist ideals---thus works in and of itself is not an indication.Upon browsing the internet for any possible insights from others---which I might agree with--I came upon this article:
What Is A True Christian? written by a Pastor, Jeremy Walker.( is a pastor of Maidenbower Baptist Church. He blogs at The Wanderer and is co-author of A Portrait of Paul: Identifying A True Minister of Christ)Jeremy outlines four things that he feels are indispensable indications of true Christianity (Thus the bottom line) Whoever trusts in Jesus, though he believes one moment and dies the next, has his life hid with Christ in God.In essence, relationship with Jesus is a definite indicator. I will say, however, that one can love Jesus without appearing religious, without proselytizing, and without attending a formal church---though I would add that communion with others is essential. (In a sense, we here at EvC engage in a form of communion simply by dialogue with each other) I understand the concept of godliness. It is the work of the Holy Spirit within ones life. One contentious point is the idea of no love for "the world". This does not mean to shun people...it means that a Christian believes that the world system and philosophy--the way society evolves---is flawed due to it being decided entirely by fallible humans who by nature have no reverence--or need--of God or of Gods character manifest through the living Christ. I would add that to me, the affection is not just for "Gods" people but for all people...be they atheist or of another religion. Jesus did not only love His own.(The Jews) but He reached out to the pagans....later through the Apostle Paul.This is to me all rather long and complicated. I would summarize it to say that a true Christian has a relationship with Jesus Christ (Whom we believe to be alive eternally and present with us today)

Thats David Platts take on it. Evidently he does not consider Jesus as a dead spook. I think that we have established already---in other threads--that doing what He wants(wanted, for some) us to do is a necessity. jar would argue that it does not matter if we believe He is alive or not, while others would argue that it is only through His transforming Spirit that we can by nature even love our neighbor without coveting his ass or his wife or anything else. To me, it means trusting that I am doing the best that I can do on a daily basis...in communion with His living Spirit. Others may not feel the need for that belief in order to do the best that they can do. Personally, I believe that He lives in me. Some fully understand what I'm talking about while others may think my belief a bit bizarre. Edited by Phat, : spellcheck

Either you are athletic or you are not. There is a point where one cannot run fast enough to catch the pop fly to right field. If they are not good at baseball, they are not athletic enough to catch the ball.Going further with these analogies...I suppose that one could simply go and do good for others without being religious....thus they are a true humanist. My point is that by definition, a Christian has trust that Jesus Christ is alive today (in Spirit) and that they trust this Spirit in daily communion...be it formal or informal. A humanist would have no desire (or self professed need) to trust anything apart from themselves or other living humans to be in communion with. I would agree, however, that Jesus would not shun them for such belief. Perhaps they would not feel in communion with Him since they lacked belief yet that would not prevent Him from having communion with them---even without their conscious awareness of such a thing.

To some it would.Paul...who purportedly got knocked off his high horse and blinded before he accepted Jesus...argues that if the Gospel is false...the entire calling is in vain. I can see your point---however---that it is actions that count more than beliefs. Thus, you may argue that it is irrelevant if the Gospel is true or if Jesus actually existed...as long as you live the actions that the character in the book lived.Apparently, the author of Corinthians did not think so. I would say---in conclusion---that doing is better than mere believing. Faith without works is dead. And actions speak louder than words. I do not diminish the words in Corinthians, however. The character in the book must be eternally alive even if fictional. Thats a requirement of this character.

Not so. The word was the word in the beginning. The word(s) were spoken orally long before they were written down. The early believers surely had some impartation from the spoken word---if not the written.

This was indeed a good topic. We discuss it endlessly here at EvC. Personally I believe that a true Christian has to know Christ. To some, knowing Christ means identifying with the character of Christ and following Him by living a good example. Others would argue that this character is a living Spirit and that simply living with a humanist-altruistic spirit of good works and social activism is not enough. We have brought up the argument that Christianity is about what one does rather than about what one believes. In some ways this makes sense yet in other ways I see a schizm. This does seem to be a popular definition. Thus the question arises: Can someone be a Christian who does not even believe that Jesus existed? In my opinion, if so, they would have to still do as Jesus did---otherwise why even use the label of Christian?Personally I believe that Jesus existed, lived as the accounts in Bible translations say He did, was crucified and that GOD the Creator of all seen and unseen brought Him back to life. I also believe in One Holy Spirit and believe that this is what separates the real from the fake. This is not to say, however, that I am any more real than another and I will confess that I am quite fake at times. Its not about me. Its about Him. I believe that He lives through us. Reality is what it is. I believe that some people pick the wrong battles. If reality told me that I evolved, it would not prevent me from believing that I was created in Gods image and that I was given the gift (and responsibility) of salvation, illumination, and opportunity to try and do the best that I could. I believe that this can and is being done through communion with GOD through Jesus Christ, but this is only a personal belief. Who am I to say an atheist couldn't get it done in a way different from mine? What needs to have consensus is

What needs to be done? Who is qualified to try and do it?

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Is it important to be in agreement regarding Christ and His finished work? Or is this an individual thing and not meant for social agreement?

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faceman writes:

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if Jesus is who He said He was, which is God, then He must be trusted. If He must be trusted, then the word must be trusted, because He also proclaimed Himself to be the Word.

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If you believe the Bible to be a myth, then you believe Jesus to be a myth.

Perhaps what is important is that we are trusted by others. If GOD exists and is represented by total trust in Him, the important thing is for this to manifest through humanity. Christ=human character perfected by GOD. In my opinion, a true Christian would strive for this ideal. If they happened to be atheist, the goal would be honesty and transparency with others, striving for a character of honor and integrity, and empathy for fellow humans.

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Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

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One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

I recently watched what I thought to be a dynamic Christian movie where a young college student debates his atheist professor. After watching the movie and shedding a few tears, I was curious what an atheist would have thought of the movie---I become better at debate by learning how my ideological opponents think. Anyway, to make a long story short, I began thinking about other ideological concepts and what it mean't---to me---to be a "true" Christian.Make no mistake---in my heart I embrace Tangle as much as I do you and Iano. I dont always like jar, but I DO love him. My point is that a true Christian loves unconditionally. Not simply other Christians.I also believe that any Christian worth their salt has had to undergo persecution and/or suffering. By this, I mean that suffering produces better character..if one knows how to let it. The key, in my mind, is loving Jesus first. I do not mean this as a cliche. I mean to love Jesus by loving others. Reading the Bible is, of course, important---old jar claims I'v e never read it..but I do, and quite frankly don't see it as he sees it.Thus my point: A strong Christian will not only read and know the Bible(which im learning, by the way) but will be well read on other worldly philosophies as well. Even more important than knowing other philosophies is the intentional action of meeting, knowing, and loving the philosophers themselves.

I watched the film. I agree with the atheist on this review: My TakeThe Christians in the movie were all portrayed as kind and caring---precisely the way I want to be. I do agree with the atheists in My Take.They were portrayed unfairly.

Sure, Faith. I have watched the movie twice...its is an inspiring movie for me personally---yet after reading the atheist response I began to see it from their perspective. Once you watch the movie, you can also draw your own conclusions---Here is the atheist response from one particular atheist:

quote:

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The Chief Failure of This Film

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In the end the central injustice of this movie is its failure to fairly represent a class of people whom Christians purport to love. But it’s not loving people well to misrepresent them this badly. This movie caricatures, dehumanizes, and depersonalizes people like me, portraying us in the worst possible light. How could I not find this movie disgustingly offensive? Every single atheist in this film is a spineless, uncaring jerk. This is how you love someone like me? You made atheists the bad guys! And not even complex bad guys. You made us two-dimensional cartoon villains who rub our hands together menacingly, tweaking our pencil-thin moustaches above our sinister grins. Children should be afraid to come near us. Employers should think twice before hiring us. And clearly women should steer clear of dating us because obviously we lack hearts.
This is not love. You cannot love people while ignoring everything they tell you about themselves. You are not loving people when you refuse to listen to their stories. You are not loving them well when you decide before hearing them that you already know all that you need to know about them, overruling their own self-descriptions and self-identifications because you are convinced you know better than they do what’s going on inside of them. When you continually speak of people in terms to which they cannot agree, you are not showing them respect or validating them as real people. This movie represents a grievous failure to love people like me. If you watch this and then beg me to go watch it as well, it tells me that in some way you accept its presentation of what I am like even though I’m telling you it’s not accurate. If you say you are to be known by how you love, then this should upset you. The words may be there, but the thing your words promise is not.

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So if you are a Christian and if you are able to make it through this film without cringing at the stereotypes and misrepresentations it presents, I cannot imagine you will be able to see me for who I really am or relate to me in any way that is based in reality. If you harbor such a grotesquely caricatured straw man picture of what I’m like, then I dare say you won’t be able to hear a word I’m saying. If this movie doesn't irritate you the way I know it would have irritated me when I was a Christian, you need to spend some time getting to know real flesh-and-blood non-believers. I’ll wager you wouldn't ordinarily have much motivation to do that (except in order to engage us in debate). But someone you love may be an atheist, and I’m trying to warn you that as long as this movie doesn't make you nauseous for all its misrepresentations and clichs, you aren't gonna love your loved one well. You’re going to need some real conversations in which you ask some sincere questions and let your loved one tell you about themselves and their own thought processes without trying to cram what they say into a preconceived doctrinal grid. Is loving them worth that to you? Are you secure enough in your faith to even have such a conversation with someone like me?

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Granted the movie stereotypes atheists. It also stereotypes Christians in that only one brand of Christian belief is represented.I believe that we can know God.Other chapters of Club Christian(jars pet phrase) would say that GOD is unknowable, Jesus gave us an example of how to live as a human, and the Holy Spirit is a bit of supernatural woo dreamt up by redactors. Edited by Phat, : added stereotypes

Allow me to be quite blunt. You are correct. Some of us do believe that there is a spiritual "war" of sorts being fought within our culture. History will determine whether we were anywhere close to being right about this belief. Psychology tells us that humans tend to dehumanize those cultures and beliefs which threaten their worldview. The very idea of Islamic people waging jihad against the christian culture horrifies many---yet the culture which these Biblical Christians want to support worships the US Flag and the dollar bill more than it worships Jesus Christ. God works in mysterious ways. jar might be right. There may be far more atheists in Heaven than Biblical Christians---once the smoke clears and all of reality tallied up. You may well be the good guys, D. I can't argue that I am right and you wrong. I simply do not know. Why hate anyone? WWJD?

Hi Larni ... I followed your rabbit trail and saw another link that seemed to have a wee bit of science on it...that Nigerian thing is what happens when fundamentalists..either Christian or Muslim...are in power.One reason I like EvC is be cause we have a diverse forum. jar represents the extreme logical side of Christianity. His methodology of using Logic, Reason, and Reality is in contrast to the Biblical Christian positions.Ringo claims to be an atheist, but is witty and great for always forcing me to see the other side of any argument I have.Tangle is clearly atheist and logical. He states absence of evidence as necessary proof of evidence of absence of God, and yet is never cruel nor demeaning to me in any way.Theodoric is my thorn in the flesh. He has little respect for me and considers it sheer and utter hubris for me to participate in a forum wherein I lack integrity. I don't like him very much! Finally...Larni...there is you...my friend with psychoanalytic experience. I have a question for you. If my brain pattern changes slowly from addiction to recovery (they estimate 6 months before it even starts to reset and change) could some of my beliefs be the result of an unhealthy addictive pattern in my brain? (BTW that Landover Baptist website has some weird humor on it! weird humorEdited by Phat, : No reason given.

Sooo much? It is my belief that Jesus hates sin. Sin, by definition is seperation from God. Premise #1, in my worldview=God exists. God created all things seen and unseen. I have more respect for an agnostic who does not know than I do for someone who is simply oblivious to my belief. It is more honest, in my mind and way of thinking, to at least admit that I could be right rather than to state unequivocally that without evidence I quite likely and reasonably have no leg to stand on. It feels like a glove slap.Dan Barker sounds like an interesting chap. You do also. I cannot honestly say that I hate you or that I hate Dan. I can admit to having a strong aversion to your belief. Perhaps, in all honesty, I do not fully empathize with your thought process due to lack of the experience of living in your skin for awhile. Interesting premise. Watch people in a grocery store approach the lottery scratch ticket machine. You will observe, as have I and others, that they quite literally bow to the machine as they reach down to pick up their purchase of a scrap of dreams. I have yet to see anyone singing hymns to the machine, however. which would be problematic if reality were in fact a higher concept than belief. I disagree. Perhaps we should discuss the idea brought forth that everyone must and or does worship something. I would argue that some people at the very least worship their kids. They would counter my argument by claiming that the very concept of worship is not anywhere in their worldview. Ahhh thanks. That confirms my understanding of your point of view. Granted I am a bit of a pompous ass sometimes...ask Theodoric! By the way, I have stated before that I do not like Theodoric very much. This is true. I do embrace love more than hate, however. I am beginning to explore this odd fact on a deeper level. I hope that I have answered it, but if not, please clarify more fully.

I've not heard anything about atheists. We focus on reaching the urban poor. What religion or belief they hold is of no consequence. If they end up coming to our church, it is not because we bribed them. Here is our facebook pageI do believe in One Holy Spirit and other spirits, but I don't believe that humans are either devils or spirits.

I can understand a hatred of ideas,beliefs, and world views. I cannot understand hating any human for whatever reason. One may disagree with the message yet need not shoot the messenger. Im working on this one. Sometimes i get in an addictive online response mode and fire back responses to people without giving them proper thought or consideration.

coulda fooled me!