Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?

You're right. Bad example. I wouldn't be too sure of that. The laws say, if you bake wedding cakes you cannot refuse to make such a cake just because the couple is gay. Wedding toppers have not been in contention as far as I can determine. It's been the outright refusal to take the order, to do business that has been at issue. In both the Colorado and the Oregon cases I do not find any reference to cake toppers. Just the flat refusal to do business.To my mind a two groom topper (Colorado) or a two bride topper (Oregon) are indeed symbols conveying meaning and are thus speech.When we hear in the news a bakery has refused to sell a "Gay Wedding Cake" are we in fact talking about a 2 groom topper or just a wedding cake (topper undisclosed). The media likes the visage of the two black-tux'ed grooms on a cake when hyping their stories but as far as I can tell no topper even enters into the complaints.So if a baker agreed to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple but refused to provide a 2 groom topper or only to provide the usual bride-groom topper, is this actionable under commercial anti-discrimination laws?I donno. A smart baker intent on holding to her conscience would maybe up-charge the price, provide two bride-groom sets and let the customer pick and choose to their hearts content.As for the additional verbiage on the wedding cake, that may indeed cross the line and, my opinion, the courts would not force the baker to speak such words especially since they are not usual or customary on a cake.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Dunno, they're your laws :-)Also if a heterosexual, obviously married couple went to buy the cake with two gay guys on it for their friends, and were refused, what then? A lawyer's goldmine...

To get a lawyer to smile for a photo tell him to say "fees".

Giving it some second thought the courts may see the speech issue involved in the cake topper as being so trivial to the overall conduct of the business transaction, which the state has a compelling interest to foster, they may find requiring such a decoration be provided in the customary course of the business as insufficient imposition on the conscience to warrant protection.Who knows? Wait and see.

There is another case that happened, where a tee shirt person didn't make 'gay pride' tee shirts The judge did ruled he did not have to. On the other hand, the business owner DID find another tee shirt maker for the customer who would make the tee shirts for the same price.

That doesn't surprise me. Like I say, it's a borderline issue, and the case law often varies from case to case when it's on the boundaries.It is interesting to me that, in the UK (and more widely in Europe),we seem to have drawn the lines a little further away from the protection of the freedom of speech, than is the case in the States. Not a great deal - freedom of speech is still vitally important to all European countries (witness the strength of feeling after the Charlie Hebdo murders) - but we seem more comfortable with lacing it with restrictions.A good example is the offence, in Germany and Austria, of Holocaust denial.

I really can't help wondering, though I'm pretty sure you'll stick to your guns, if any of you will have second thoughts when you realize how many Christians will be put out of business and perhaps even end up in prison over this. One of the best-known theologians in the country just said during panel discussion that he hoped people would visit him in jail. He'd talked about having gay neighbors and how they were all good friends and they understand how he thinks, but still, the way the laws are going he knows all that has to happen is that someone will come to his church and ask what he thinks about gay rights and he'll tell them what the Bible says and be arrested. and other teachers I hear on the radio have been mentioning if only in passing, sometimes in the context of a Bible passage about persecution, how laws are being designed these days to make criminals of Christians. It's inevitable in most Christians' minds. I don't get this attempt to make an exception of freedom of speech since "hate speech" is being targeted as much as the actions of businesses that won't serve gay marriages.ABE: Another thing I've been wondering is whether Jews will eventually be targeted by these laws too. I don't think Muslims will but Jews could be it seems to me.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Put your persecution complex back in its box, the laws are protecting minorities from discrimination. They've got nothing to do with Christians or even religion - they apply to everyone regardless of belief.

At the end of the day, what it boils down to is this: you have a right to your faith. But when aspects (and it is only aspects) of your practice of that faith start to hurt other people (whether through them being treated as less than others, or being subjected to abuse or violence, or whatever), we have to balance your rights against theirs, and work out who is harmed the more - the others by that aspect of the practice of your faith; or you by saying that we will punish that aspect if it hurts the other person.Sometimes, the balance comes down on your side. Sometimes it doesn't.There is nothing so special about your faith, though, that says it always has to win, regardless of its effect on others.

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I really can't help wondering, though I'm pretty sure you'll stick to your guns, if any of you will have second thoughts when you realize how many Christians will be put out of business and perhaps even end up in prison over this.

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Probably not many in the U.S.. After all those that live in a state that includes gays as a protected class just have to treat gays like everyone else. And let's not forget that Christians are also a protected class.I'd say that the real problem is the people kicking up hysteria over gay marriage.

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One of the best-known theologians in the country just said during panel discussion that he hoped people would visit him in jail

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I'd be surprised if many important theologians were well-known. Certainly not many that are presently living.

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but still, the way the laws are going he knows all that has to happen is that someone will come to his church and ask what he thinks about gay rights and he'll tell them what the Bible says and be arrested. and other teachers I hear on the radio have been mentioning if only in passing, sometimes in the context of a Bible passage about persecution, how laws are being designed these days to make criminals of Christians. It's inevitable in most Christians' minds.

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There's no criminalising of hate speech in the U.S. Nor are there any laws designed to target "Christians". There are a lot of "Christians" bitterly complaining that their privileges are being eroded, but why should they be entitled to special treatment ?This is a fine example of the attempts to whip up hysteria with falsehoods.

Like the mule from Missouri:Show me any instance where a christian, or anyone else for that matter, was arrested for speaking their religious opinion.Show me any law, bill, pending or submitted, in Congress or any legislature, that criminalizes a christian, or anyone else, for speaking their religious opinion.I'll show you plenty of laws, nationally and from every state in the Union, that protect christians, and everyone else, in speaking their religious opinions.As for this persecution of christians for their bigoted actions, I'll show you where, how and why those actions are barred to everyone, christian, jew, moslim, gay, liberal, atheist, everyone.Show me one instance of this persecution of christians, Faith. The only time you go to jail is when you break the law. And that law applies to everyone not just christians.Show me this persecution, Faith.

"best-known"by whom? As my suegro (father-in-law) would so often say, "En su propria casa se conoce." ("In his own house they know him.") Similarly, those who have had to deal with creationist nonsense over the years know the names of creationists all too well, yet even most creationists do not know even that much.What is the name of this "One of the best-known theologians"? You know him/her so well, so give us the name.During what panel discussion? You know full well what panel discussion it was, so please let us know as well so that we can review it ourselves. Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot-Oscar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Where? In what country? Provide us with specifics! Starting with the name of this anonymous "One of the best-known theologians". Do be most extremely specific!We are all calling Bullshit!!! and for very good reason!Do please name any one specific case where "he'll tell them what the Bible says and be arrested. and other teachers I hear on the radio have been mentioning if only in passing, sometimes in the context of a Bible passage about persecution, how laws are being designed these days to make criminals of Christians." Do please be very specific.You cannot. And you know it. So why do you continue to pretend?

Like most of the scenarios dreamed up by the fear-mongers, this is absurd on the face of it. A cake topper is a product. If you don't stock a product, you cannot be required to sell it. Period. There is no requirement that a business sell every product available.

I sincerely hope you aren't holding your breath waiting for a coherent reply to these questions. Claims like these remind me of the "preacher stories" I remember from childhood. Somewhere in my adolescence I realized that when a minister used the phrase "The story is told of..." that it really meant "What I am about to say is made-up horse shit that serves my purpose."

It's now a certainty that Ireland has voted for same sex marriage.That was impossible to think of ten years ago. Perhaps those Catholic priests who were outed for their own buggery, have done some good afterall - albeit inadvertantly.