Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 121 (8781 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-19-2017 10:21 PM
351 online now:
dwise1, Faith, GDR, herebedragons, kjsimons (5 members, 346 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: evilsorcerer1
Post Volume:
Total: 816,503 Year: 21,109/21,208 Month: 1,542/2,326 Week: 878/345 Day: 116/124 Hour: 2/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Stone Age v2? -- chimpanzees, monkeys
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18858
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 1 of 12 (766833)
08-22-2015 9:27 AM


Scientists on 3 continents now have evidence: Some chimps have entered the Stone Age.

quote:
According to a fascinating report from Collin Barras of the BBC, archeologists in Africa, South America and Southeast Asia, have been digging up crude stone tools that date back thousands of years — tools that were fashioned by non-human primates.

Which means something kind of extraordinary (emphasis mine):

"The tools are crude. A chimpanzee or monkey stone hammer is hardly a work of art to rival the beauty of an ancient human hand axe. But that's not the point. These primates have developed a culture that makes routine use of a stone-based technology. That means they have entered the Stone Age."

That's right: We now how pretty solid evidence to suggest that at least some chimps are now firmly in the Stone Age.


It has been known for some time that chimpanzees fashion tools from wood, including spears with the ends ground to a point on stones. That some would also fashion tools from stones should not be a big surprise.

Monkeys’ cosy alliance with wolves looks like domestication

quote:
In the alpine grasslands of eastern Africa, Ethiopian wolves and gelada monkeys are giving peace a chance. The geladas – a type of baboon – tolerate wolves wandering right through the middle of their herds, while the wolves ignore potential meals of baby geladas in favour of rodents, which they can catch more easily when the monkeys are present.

The unusual pact echoes the way dogs began to be domesticated by humans (see box, below), and was spotted by primatologist Vivek Venkataraman, at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire, during fieldwork at Guassa plateau in the highlands of north-central Ethiopia.

Even though the wolves occasionally prey on young sheep and goats, which are as big as young geladas, they do not normally attack the monkeys – and the geladas seem to know that, because they do not run away from the wolves.

This suggested that they were deliberately associating with the geladas. Since the wolves usually entered gelada groups during the middle of the day, when rodents are most active, he wondered whether the geladas made it easier for the wolves to catch the rodents – their primary prey.

Venkataraman and his colleagues followed individual wolves for 17 days, recording each attempted capture of a rodent, and whether it worked. The wolves succeeded in 67 per cent of attempts when within a gelada herd, but only 25 per cent of the time when on their own.

The wolves may benefit from associating with other species as well. For example, Sillero has noted that they also tend to forage in the vicinity of herds of cattle, which may help them catch rodents. Other predators might also be doing this without anyone noticing, says Colin Chapman, a primatologist at McGill University in Montreal, Canada. “I don’t think we’ve looked at it very much, because the predators are usually scared off by people. I think it could be pretty common,” he says.


So this could be similar to cowbirds and cattle egrets following cattle herds, and I would not be surprised in the least that other species find such behavior beneficial to survival.

For the wolf to dog conversion this would include mutual tolerance for mutual benefit, lower adrenaline, and then you start seeing the domestication changes shown by the silver foxes ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by TheMatrix/DNA, posted 08-22-2015 1:54 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 7 by caffeine, posted 08-24-2015 2:50 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 2 of 12 (766835)
08-22-2015 11:49 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Stone Age v2? -- chimpanzees, monkeys thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
TheMatrix/DNA
Member (Idle past 614 days)
Posts: 46
From: Newark-NJ-USA
Joined: 06-05-2015


Message 3 of 12 (766840)
08-22-2015 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
08-22-2015 9:27 AM


quote:
These primates have developed a culture that makes routine use of a stone-based technology.

This is another evidence for a universal law that few people knows it. Why chimps and not gorillas making those tools? The gorillas were the most powerful genre among monkeys species, but, the DNA is telling us that instead selecting the gorillas for transcendence into human species, Nature went back in time and space of monkeys evolution, and caught a less powerful animal - some cousin of chimps. Why?

The answer should be known by humans' economic elites, dictators, kings, etc. And by those mirroring their actions based on moral values extracted from the modern interpretation of Darwinian theory.

Chimps transcended and were fixed into the trunk of the evolutionary tree gratefully due the mistake of gorillas. There is a video in Youtube showing that chimps attacks in groups the preys like smaller monkeys and cannibalize them. it is a strong indication that gorillas were cannibalizing chimps. So, since that gorillas were the owner of the territory and the food, chimps had trouble for surviving, and this stress is the stimulus, the source for creation, for to search any method that could help. Then, the chimps adventure into manufacturing tools.

Another lesson that came from the video of cannibal chimps is that they acts in groups for hurting instead gorillas that goes alone. It is indication that cooperation, the ability for socialization, and not competition, or the individual selfishness of gorillas, that leads a species to be successful.

Where are the dinosaurs, the most powerful from reptiles? Nature discarded dinosaurs and went back in time and volume, choosing the smaller cynodont for being the ancestral of mammals.

Where are the lions, kings of land? The wales, king of the oceans? The eagles, king of the air? Certainly going to extinction. So, it is not fitness, competition, power for fighting, smartness, physical force, the right values to be inferred from evolution. These traits leads the individuals to a dead end.

The informations for a more complex brain and initializing the production of consciousness from the biological systems at Earth were in the air, at the time when gorillas dominate. The source of these informations is another unknown and more elevated natural system in the systemic universal hierarchy. The humble chimps was opened to the insertion of these information, while the gorillas was a closed system avoiding them. Have you watched " 2001, The Space Odissey"?. These informations was represented by the black stone monolite.

Another important lesson from this issue is for Physics and Math. Evolution is not linear, it is curve. Everytime a new species becomes successful and the most evolved complexity in a given environment, the species accommodates in that way of living, super-specializes its functions and try to conserve eternally its ruled biospheric system. The species arrives to its limits for absorbing new information that comes from the system that is bigger and above the systemic immediate environment. One sample is the Republicans in United States, or the Senate of Roman Empire, etc. Conservadorism of an evolutionary shape that Nature considers as a temporary shape, it is not the final goal of evolution. So, Nature goes back in time, in relation to DNA, looking for the individuals or groups who DNA has no inserted the last informations, which are evolutionary wrong informations. Nature goes back in space, searching the individuals that has not become such heavy, inadequate for adapting to the next normal changing in the environment.

There is no way to inset this retrocess in time and space into mathematical equations. When trying to translate and calculating a natural process acting over any natural system, Math can't avoid to be linear, following a straight line of logics. Since that any great evolutionary transformations is composed by smaller cycles, and that every cycle begins as linear, before en-curving, the exercise of Math can predict the initial slice of future times, like Einstein predict the novelties about light and space. But, then, Math goes out, far away from the real beam, and people does not perceipt it.

That is why the modern astronomical models are wrong and so, their model of the state of the world at the moment of life's origins can not show the forces and elements that were applied for building life. The natural law applied for biological systems evolution was applied for cosmological evolution also, and that's why Nature did not choose the giant and powerful Jupiter, but, instead, chose the little and humble Earth for to be the ancestral included into the body of the new transcendent system called human being.

We need to propagate this lessons from Nature. If individuals like Hitler knew it, instead believing in the survival of the (fake) strongest, he would change his directions. Nature has potential for giving to humans moral values enough to build a peaceful and cooperative human social system. Cheers...


There was no origins of life and universe, astronomical systems are half-alive, light waves contains the code for life and DNA is not a code: Matrix/DNA Theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 08-22-2015 9:27 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 08-22-2015 3:36 PM TheMatrix/DNA has responded
 Message 5 by Coyote, posted 08-22-2015 3:37 PM TheMatrix/DNA has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18858
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 4 of 12 (766847)
08-22-2015 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by TheMatrix/DNA
08-22-2015 1:54 PM


Thank you for showing that chimp intelligence overlaps human intelligence.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by TheMatrix/DNA, posted 08-22-2015 1:54 PM TheMatrix/DNA has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by TheMatrix/DNA, posted 08-25-2015 2:10 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5934
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 5 of 12 (766848)
08-22-2015 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by TheMatrix/DNA
08-22-2015 1:54 PM


You have your facts wrong
This is another evidence for a universal law that few people knows it. Why chimps and not gorillas making those tools? The gorillas were the most powerful genre among monkeys species, but, the DNA is telling us that instead selecting the gorillas for transcendence into human species, Nature went back in time and space of monkeys evolution, and caught a less powerful animal - some cousin of chimps. Why?

Chimps are our closest relatives, gorillas are more distant, and gorillas are not a "monkey species." Gorillas and chimps etc. (i.e., apes) branched off from monkeys something like 25 or more million years ago.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by TheMatrix/DNA, posted 08-22-2015 1:54 PM TheMatrix/DNA has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 08-23-2015 12:54 PM Coyote has not yet responded
 Message 10 by TheMatrix/DNA, posted 08-25-2015 1:55 AM Coyote has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18858
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 6 of 12 (766883)
08-23-2015 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coyote
08-22-2015 3:37 PM


wolf domestication
The other behavior observed between baboons and wolves I see as more of a universal, if not previously noted, behavior of using one species to scare up food for another species.

This appears to be the first time it has been observed with primates being used as the drovers.

This is well documented with cattle egrets and cowbirds, and I would not be surprised to see it in many other species, mostly because it is not looked for.

And I see this as a strong possibility for the beginning of wolf domestication to dogs, as it brings the two species together in a low or non-confrontational mode.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Coyote, posted 08-22-2015 3:37 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1322
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 7 of 12 (766962)
08-24-2015 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
08-22-2015 9:27 AM


It has been known for some time that chimpanzees fashion tools from wood, including spears with the ends ground to a point on stones. That some would also fashion tools from stones should not be a big surprise.

That chimps use stone tools is not a surprise. It's been well known for decades. They do not, however, fashion. Chimpanzee stone use involves finding a convenient stone and hitting things with it - they do not modify the stone for use. It's possible to discover archaeological evidence of stone tool use because of characteristic wear on the tools.

The human stone age, on the other hand, we usually consider to begin when humans began modifying stones for use, which no other primate is yet known to do. Simply using stones isn't limited to chimps either - some species of capuchins and macaques both do so, as it says in the article you linked to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 08-22-2015 9:27 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-24-2015 3:07 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11665
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 8 of 12 (766965)
08-24-2015 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by caffeine
08-24-2015 2:50 PM


Simply using stones isn't limited to chimps either - some species of capuchins and macaques both do so, as it says in the article you linked to.

Also, otters use stones to bash clams open.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by caffeine, posted 08-24-2015 2:50 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 08-24-2015 5:06 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 12 (766978)
08-24-2015 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
08-24-2015 3:07 PM


Sophisticated stone usage
Crows using stones to displace water in a vessel to get a drink...

http://www.iflscience.com/...splacement-better-six-year-olds

quote:
Logan used one wide and one narrow beaker of water with the same size lids. "The question is, can they distinguish between water volumes?" Logan said. "Do they understand that dropping a stone into a narrow tube will raise the water level more?" In a previous study the birds were not able to work out that it was more efficient to drop stones in the narrow tube in order to raise the water level.

However, Logan saw a flaw – the crows were given 12 stones, enough to raise the water level sufficiently in either tube. The only reason to prefer the narrow tube was that it was quicker. "When we gave them only four objects, they could succeed only in one tube -- the narrower one, because the water level would never get high enough in the wider tube,” Logan says.

Under such circumstances the birds realized they needed to use their resources wisely, and most did so, putting the pebbles in the narrow tube.



Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-24-2015 3:07 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
TheMatrix/DNA
Member (Idle past 614 days)
Posts: 46
From: Newark-NJ-USA
Joined: 06-05-2015


Message 10 of 12 (766993)
08-25-2015 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coyote
08-22-2015 3:37 PM


Re: You have your facts wrong
quote:
You have your facts wrong

Nope. My post reveals that was wrote from the systemic method perspective, then, the facts that matter are not those details from the reductive method, this is interesting for those that works with the reductive method.

Universal laws, curved evolution, moral codes, the relevant issues in that post is what matter for us. That there are differences between chimps and gorillas we can see by naked eye, now, if we give the name of ape or monkey to them, these tinny details, does not matter.

So, do you agree or don't about those issues?


There was no origins of life and universe, astronomical systems are half-alive, light waves contains the code for life and DNA is not a code: Matrix/DNA Theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Coyote, posted 08-22-2015 3:37 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Coyote, posted 08-25-2015 9:15 AM TheMatrix/DNA has not yet responded

    
TheMatrix/DNA
Member (Idle past 614 days)
Posts: 46
From: Newark-NJ-USA
Joined: 06-05-2015


Message 11 of 12 (766994)
08-25-2015 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
08-22-2015 3:36 PM


Stone Age v2? -- chimpanzees, monkeys
quote:
Thank you for showing that chimp intelligence overlaps human intelligence.

Interesting! You had repeated exactly the words that natives of Amazon jungle told to me. I was having hard times for surviving while they watch smiling. They know every detail of the jungle and knowing that I don't - they said that till monkeys know more than me.

Of course, when I told to them some issues of natural philosophy the general approach of systemic method - they didn't understand one word and continuing to think they are more intelligent. I know that you also didn't understood one word of my post because you understand every detail of microbiological evolution and had no time for studying macro cosmological evolution, which is my issue. Enjoy.

Edited by TheMatrix/DNA, : wrong words


There was no origins of life and universe, astronomical systems are half-alive, light waves contains the code for life and DNA is not a code: Matrix/DNA Theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 08-22-2015 3:36 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5934
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.9


(4)
Message 12 of 12 (767011)
08-25-2015 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by TheMatrix/DNA
08-25-2015 1:55 AM


Re: You have your facts wrong
So, do you agree or don't about those issues?

No, I don't agree.

And you have your own thread, it might be better if you didn't pollute this thread with your abject nonsense.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by TheMatrix/DNA, posted 08-25-2015 1:55 AM TheMatrix/DNA has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017