Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,909 Year: 4,166/9,624 Month: 1,037/974 Week: 364/286 Day: 7/13 Hour: 2/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 62 of 2887 (768349)
09-10-2015 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
09-04-2015 3:09 AM


Re: And Now Some Ankylosaurs
But it's nothing more than normal microevolution that occurs all the time ...
Some discussion of ankylosaur tails here.
Ankylosaur tail clubs are odd structures, odder than they are usually given credit for. They represent substantial modifications to two different skeletal systems — the endoskeleton, in the form of the caudal vertebrae, and the dermal skeleton, in the form of the caudal osteoderms. The centra of the caudal vertebrae lengthen but stay robust, and the neural arches undergo huge changes, such that the prezygapophyses, postzygapophyses, and neural spine become a robust, V-shaped structure on the top of the centrum, and which creates a tightly interlocking vertebral series with almost no flexibility. We call this the handle of the tail club. The osteoderms at the tip of the tail smush together and two of them become huge: although the tail club knob is small in some species, there are colossal knobs exceeding 60 cm in width. The ankylosaur tail club represents one of the most extreme modifications to the tail in terrestrial tetrapods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 09-04-2015 3:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by RAZD, posted 09-11-2015 8:59 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 2:48 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 65 of 2887 (768570)
09-12-2015 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
09-12-2015 2:48 AM


Re: And Now Some Ankylosaurs
It would help to have more information about the size of these creatures etc
They're big.
but in any case you'd have to show ...
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 09-12-2015 2:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 68 of 2887 (768578)
09-12-2015 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by ICANT
09-12-2015 10:49 AM


How does a bunch of pictures lined up in a row which are said to be millions of years apart have anything to do with evolution?
It's what we'd expect to see if there had in fact been evolution.
Is not it just just as plausible that they were created as they are found in different parts of eternity?
Well, I'll say to you what Kingsley said to Gosse: "I cannot believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for all mankind."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 10:49 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:41 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 69 of 2887 (768579)
09-12-2015 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by ICANT
09-12-2015 10:41 AM


What 'you people' are you referring too?
Creationists. There may be a few honorable exceptions, but by and large creationists try to use the flood to explain, not what the geological record looks like, but what creationists think it looks like. But it doesn't look like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 10:41 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:49 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 72 of 2887 (768583)
09-12-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:37 AM


None of your speculation explains why there's all this evidence for evolution lying around. You want another run at that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:37 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:54 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 78 of 2887 (768591)
09-12-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:49 AM


I am a Creationist. You are a Creationist unless you believe the Universe has always existed.
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:49 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:46 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 2887 (768592)
09-12-2015 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:54 AM


What speculation.
You know, the stuff you made up?
I used all your your evidence for evolution.
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:54 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 80 of 2887 (768594)
09-12-2015 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by ICANT
09-12-2015 11:41 AM


I have the same fossil record that you do. I just read it differently than you do.
In that you ignore it and I don't. This is different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 11:41 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:13 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 86 of 2887 (768606)
09-12-2015 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ICANT
09-12-2015 12:30 PM


What could that conceivably have to do with fossils?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 12:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 1:08 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 92 of 2887 (768621)
09-12-2015 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ICANT
09-12-2015 1:08 PM


We have to have a universe because No universe, no fossils.
Well, you could say that of anything. Chocolate pudding, for example. But I wouldn't gratuitously drag the origin of the universe into a discussion of chocolate pudding.
All kinds of creatures beginning to exist gives you all the fossils you have existing in the museum's today.
But why did it give us those fossils, the ones that look exactly like evidence for evolution? I have an explanation: they were actually caused by evolution, which is why they appear to have been caused by evolution. What's your explanation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 1:08 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 93 of 2887 (768622)
09-12-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ICANT
09-12-2015 1:11 PM


If the fossil record is not just a collection of fossils, what is it?
Their stratigraphic relationships, too. In the same way, your body is not just a collection of bones, organs, soft tissue, etc, it's an arrangement of them.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ICANT, posted 09-12-2015 1:11 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(8)
Message 107 of 2887 (768723)
09-13-2015 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
09-13-2015 1:47 PM


Why SHOULD they ever be found together?
Because water is no good at taxonomy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 09-13-2015 1:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 120 of 2887 (769382)
09-20-2015 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
09-20-2015 9:10 AM


Re: Moved Post: There's Just Something Funny about the Transitionals Idea
Anyway, I find myself having the same sorts of questions I had about Dr. A's skulls. The supposed evolutionary sequence is just too pat, too "just so" to be realistic.
You're complaining that the evidence is too good?
Where are the "errors," or at least the deviations from the too-too perfect path from the reptilian to the mammalian adaptation?
Well, I could show you lots of fossils of things that don't have any surviving descendants. Look, here's one.
It's called a Spinosaurus, it's a complete dead end. No mammals, no birds, and indeed nothing at all now living is descended from it. Happy now?
Doesn't evolution ever make mistakes? But of course you'll say it does, all the time, and yet this sort of perfect sequence is what you give for evidence.
That, Faith, is because if I want to demonstrate a reptile-to-mammal transition or ape-to-human transition, I'm not going to throw in the Spinosaurus, which is not part of that transition and so does not demonstrate it.
How did we get this neat progression of skulls from small cranial capacity to large human cranial capacity with such plausible morphological gradations from one to another of the skulls?
Because humans evolved from apes.
How did we get this neat progression of types of middle ear bones as described by Mr. Hertzler, in what sounds like a similarly smooth gradation from one type to another, each perfectly fitted to its reptilian or reptilian-mammalian or mammalian host?
Because mammals evolved from reptiles.
Dates. Sure seems open-and-shut when you've got each skull dated, each example of reptilian or mammalian ear bones dated, and they all so nicely follow one from another just as evolution says they should. It's the dating of the specimens that seals the deal, right, so unless one wants to accuse all researchers in the area of outright fraud the dates have to be accepted don't they? How can one answer that?
First, I'm not accusing anyone of fraud, but there is certainly something odd about how this all fits together that ought not to be taken at face value.
Again, you're complaining that the evidence is too good. You could say that of pretty much anything that's true. "You tell me trees exist, and then you claim to 'prove' it by showing me thousands of trees. Doesn't it strike you as suspicious that there's so many of them? That I can not just see them, but actually touch them? Doesn't it all seem a bit too convenient?"
So, what should it look like if there were trees? And what would it look like if evolutionists were right? Wouldn't there be intermediate forms --- such as we find? Wouldn't the dates roughly show the more basal forms to be earlier --- like they do?
---
Your crap about genetics has been exposed and ridiculed on other threads. If you want to do this again, bump one of those threads, don't do it here.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 09-20-2015 9:10 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by arachnophilia, posted 09-20-2015 3:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 122 of 2887 (769421)
09-20-2015 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by arachnophilia
09-20-2015 3:42 PM


Re: Moved Post: There's Just Something Funny about the Transitionals Idea
Well, yes, I'm using "reptile" as a grade, to mean "the sort of thing where, if you saw one, you'd say "oh look, a reptile"."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by arachnophilia, posted 09-20-2015 3:42 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(6)
Message 124 of 2887 (769460)
09-21-2015 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Faith
09-21-2015 9:40 AM


Re: Reptiles to Mammals
I can understand how convincing this seems to be, with all the apparent gradations that would get from the reptilian to the mammalian jaw bones, with a therapsid type in between that appears to be a perfect transitional between the two, but it has to be pointed out that the whole scenario is assumed for starters. Evolution from one to the other is assumed, so the task is clearly laid out as speculating about how the one set of bones changed into the other type of bones. It's all quite plausible, if you assume evolution between the specimens to begin with.
Well, you're exhibiting a classic creationist confusion between the evidence for evolution and evolutionary interpretation.
To test evolution, we say: if it's right, we should be able to find things which look like an evolutionary pathway between A and B, in that they will have intermediate forms.
When we've been convinced by this and other evidence that evolution happened, then we can look back at the same fossils and say: A did evolve into B, and these are transitional species.
The first is a successful prediction, the second is interpretation. The fossil evidence for evolution is, of course, the successful prediction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 09-21-2015 9:40 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Diomedes, posted 09-21-2015 3:23 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024