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Author | Topic: Creation | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Proto
Proto writes: Science tells us about what we can see and about what we can infer from what we see. But when it comes to the actual beginning to exist of the universe science is silent. The BBT starts 1 billionth of a second after the universe existed. Where did the universe come from? It is impossible for the universe to begin to exist from an absence of anything. I have asked cavediver and Son Gouk what existed at T=0 and the answer was "we don't know". They were talking about science not knowing. So the assumption is that the universe began to exist because it is here. It could not have existed forever as it would be a dead universe long before now because it is expanding. So creation science is not precise. Yes I know there is the string hypothesis as well as a bounce hypotheses of which both are called theories but neither has reached that stage yet. Science can go only so far back in time and it comes to a place where the math will not work so nothing can be seen past that point. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Cat,
Cat writes: Can you list the verses in the Bible in chronological order? I think that was done around 1100 AD. I don't know if they got the order of the verses correct or not. But I do know that Genesis 2:4 claims to be the history of the day God created the heavens and the earth. All generations list follow the declaration of these are the generations of..... Just as the one in chapter 5. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Cat,
Cat writes: Can you list the verses in the Bible in the order in which they occurred in time? Genesis 1:1 took place in the beginning whenever that was.Genesis 2:4 is the history of the day God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 2:5-4:24 is the history of the day God created the heavens and the earth and took place the same day God created the heavens and the earth. That is what the text says. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi jar,
jar writes: It is a shame that Christianity has tried to create the impression that the Bible (any of the different Canons) is actually one book with some consistent purpose. It's not. Trying to claim that Jeremiah is in anyway related to Genesis 1 or that Genesis 2&3 are related in anyway to Genesis 1 other than by being stories selected by a committee of Canon is doing the Bible a great disservice. At what time was the earth in the condition described in Jeremiah 4:23-26 according to the Bible? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi kbertsche
kbertsche writes: What makes them proper nouns is the fact that they are names for things. The text says that God called (קָרָא ) the light "Day". If you look up קָרָא in BDB, you'll see under the Qal stem:
quote:. What happened to the first 5 definitions. Biblical Hebrew OverviewA noun is the name of a person, place, or thing. Properties 1) Gender, 2) number, 3)person, 4) case. I don't find anything about proper nouns. Why is it that most people today that talk about Biblical Hebrew want to make it a modern language. It has been dead for over 2,000 years."John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi kbertsche
kbertsche writes: I agree; Gen 1 is narrative, not poetry. But it is highly stylized and highly structured narrative. Although it is not poetry, it contains numerous poetic elements such as imagery, figures of speech, and repetition. Genesis 1 and Genesis 1:1 are two different things. Genesis 1:1 is a complete declarative statement of completed action by God producing the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:2-2:3 is the story of God repairing damage caused to the earth by an unknown cause. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes: Why is it that one self described expert fails to notice that even ancient folks had definite names for person, places and things? I never said Biblical Hebrew did not have nouns that were names for persons, places and things which covers everything that requires a noun. I did say I did not find anything about proper nouns in any of my grammar books. And the only reference to 'proper noun' in your 4 web sites is the last one at wiktionary.org. Moses did not have nouns all he had was names of people, places and things.
NoNukes writes: Beyond that, I am sure everyone noticed that nothing you have posted refutes the point kbertsche actually made. Namely that the term day is used both to refer to the daylight of a day and to the entire 24 period including evening and morning. Where is daylight mentioned in the Bible? I will give you a little hint. You can not find it between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21. The Hebrew word translated light is a feminine noun. Light is the name of a thing.The Hebrew word translated day is a masculine noun. Day is the name of a period of duration. NoNukes writes: the entire 24 period including evening and morning. According to Jewish tradition evening comes at 6 pm and morning come a 6 AM made no difference what the duration of that period was it was always 12 hours. So from evening to the following morning would be 12 hours not 24. If you conclude that the evening ended a light period that had lasted for 12 hours and then a dark period that ended with morning another 12 hours you could get a 24 hour day but no other way. You have to go from evening to evening or morning to morning to get a light period and a dark period which would represent 24 hours. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes: Unknown cause? Neither cause nor effect is described in the text. Jeremiah gives the cause and effect.
quote: God's fierce anger was the cause.The effect was that the earth was without form and void. The heavens had no light. There was no man. The birds of the heavens were fled. The fruitful place was a wilderness. All the cities were destroyed. That sounds like a description of the condition of the earth in Genesis God Bless, Edited by ICANT, : To correct typo."John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi kbertsche
I have a couple of copies of versions edited by different men. But anybody that talks about Biblical Hebrew having vowels is somebody that I don't put much belief in what they have to say about anything about Biblical Hebrew. I am also sure that Moses did not have a copy of Gesenius Hebrew Grammer. In fact I am not even sure Moses knew what a noun was since the word did not exist until the fourteenth century BC. As I said why do people try to make Biblical Hebrew into a modern language. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Proto
Proto writes: And that is a fact. If we cannot see then we cannot see. Speculation, while useful, is a poor substitute for observation. So somebody makes a bunch of assumptions and people come up with hypothesis which are taught as fact. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Cat,
Cat writes: Where does the text say to omit Gen 4:25-26 from the history of that day? Moses did not divide Genesis into sentences, verses, or chapters.That wasn't done until 1100 AD. But why would Moses put those words in the place they are found.We are at that time 7 generations from the man formed from the dust of the ground. But if he did the Seth of Genesis 4:26 did not exist past day one in Genesis 1:5. But where is the mention of a son born to the man and woman created in the image of God in Genesis 1:27? There is none, until you get to Genesis 5:3 and he has a son named Seth. This man has no son named Abel or Cain.
Cat writes: So this is how it goes: Gen 1:1Gen 2:4 - Gen 4:24or26 Gen 1:2 - Gen 2:3 Then it goes to Gen 5? The Bible text requires all the events which is the history of the day God created the heavens and the earth to take place prior to Genesis 1:2. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes: There appear to be uncountable ways to look at the text, There are many people who look at the verse in all kind of ways.But that does not change what is written down in the Hebrew text. It was written one specific way and has one specific message, not a dozen or more messages. Explain why Genesis 1:1 is not a complete declarative statement of completed action.
NoNukes writes: I think ICANT's reading comes from an attempt to manage some kind of consistency with science. NoNukes I could care less whether the Bible is consistent with science. In fact it is not. God created the heavens and the earth. The heavens and the earth did not begin to exist from some God particle that had no place to exist itself. If you believe it did feel free to expound upon such a creation as creation is what we are talking about.
NoNukes writes: Defending OEC based on a literal reading of the text requires a far greater straining against the text than does defending YEC. Does Genesis 1:1 say that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth? Does Genesis 2:4 say: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,". These would be the things that follow as it does in all other places where "These are the generations" appear such as in Genesis 5:1. That would mean that man was the first life form on earth. Gen. 2:7.Which definitely does not agree with evolution. It would also mean everything that took place in the following verses up to Genesis 1:2 took place in the day God created the heavens and the earth. Explain where I mis-represent what the text says. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes: Right. I seem to recall you explaining some of that to me before. At least I remember the part about needing to move verses 4:25-26 because they were complete inconsistent with ICANT's favored narrative in their current location. It would not make any difference if they did belong there and they did have a son they named Seth. He would not have existed at Genesis 1:2 as he would have been part of the day God created the heavens and the earth. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes: Names for people, places, and things are nouns. And probably proper nouns to boot. What Moses may have lacked was capital letters. Seriously, ICANT, please move on to some point. None of this discussion about formalities matters one wit. Genesis clearly uses the word day in more than one way. If there are no proper nouns, then your position is even more hopeless. How did Moses have nouns when the word was not created until the 1400's BC?"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi NoNukes
NoNukes writes: So what period is an evening and a morning? The duration between evening and morning God called night.
NoNukes writes: The same as a morning and an evening? The duration between morning and evening is what God called day.
NoNukes writes: Do you have a point? My first point is that the duration God called day was a duration (period) of light. My second point is that the duration God called night was a duration (period)of darkness. My third point is that the duration of light that ended with the evening and darkness (Genesis 1:2) which God called night that ended with the morning of the second day God called day one. (Genesis 1:5) God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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