Creation

Hi NoNukes Yes that was a typo. So how did you recognize I was talking about Genesis 1:2? The only history of the day God created the heavens and the earth in is given in Genesis 2:4-4:26.It is very possible that much more took place than what is recorded.
I could let my imagination run wild and mention many things that I think could have taken place during the duration of the light period that ended with the darkness at Genesis 1:2. But you would really think I had lost all my marbles and my reasoning had gone on vacation. So I will stick to just what the text says. The argument stands unless you are someone can show me where the text does not say what I put forth it says.The type of arguments you and many of the others are putting up in this thread is the reason for a thread you guys have going concerning creationist taking part in so called debate on this web site.Take my Message 103 and explain why Genesis 1:1 is not a declarative statement of completed action. Remember in Hebrew the verb can only be perfect which is completed action or imperfect which is incomplete action. The verb used is kal perfect which requires completed action.Then answer the questions about Genesis 1:1 and 2:4.
If you believe it means something else present your arguments.God Bless,

Hi everyone,I am going to be out of town and away from my computer until Monday so take a breather.God Bless,

Hi NoNukes Well if Moses had something called a noun he might have had something called a proper noun.But since he did not have a noun that means he did not have a proper noun.He did have the name of a person, place or thing. How could Moses have something that did not exist?You keep telling me I am adding to the text. But you are adding to the language.God Bless,

Hi kbertsche But for Rashi to be correct the verb would have to be a noun or אלהיס 'God' would have to follow בראשית, 'In the beginning'.
For "of God" to be in the sentence אלהיס would have to be in the construct. The construct requires a noun to follow a noun which puts the second noun in the construct state. I do not believe in a gap theory.
I believe in a 6 light period and 6 dark period creation with God ceasing His creation and making at the beginning of day seven. Origen lived from 186 to about 254 A.D.
In his great work, De Principiis, at Gen. 1.1: he stated:

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"It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of
in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven
and earth from which this present heaven and earth that we
now see afterwards borrowed their names."

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So no Chambers in not the first one to put forth a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.Onkelos put forth the following translation for the beginning of Genesis 1:2.

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"and the earth was laid waste"

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The Targum attributed to him must be placed early in the second century B .C.This translation would suggest he believed the original creation had been laid waste.As you can see there are others who held a ruin and restoring event between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.God Bless,

Hi NoNukes If you are claiming the Seth in Genesis 4:26 existed at the same time his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, nephew Lamech of Genesis 4:23 did he would have died in the water found covering the earth in Genesis 1:2.Lamech was part of the history of the day God created the heavens and the earth. No. I don't believe any man other than the one created in the image of God in Genesis 1:27 had a son named Seth as he is listed in the generations of the man created in the image of God in Genesis 5:1 and the following verses.Enos Isaac, and Jacob is descendants of the man created in the image of God in Genesis 1:27.Jesus had no earthly father. He had an earthly surrogate mother.God Bless,

Hi kbertsche I don't know of any old earther that believes the universe or earth was re-created during the restoration period.God had to do some work on the earth in order for it to be functional and inhabitable by mankind.The only things created in Genesis 1:2 - Genesis 2:3 was a great fish in Genesis 1:21 for Jonah, and mankind in Genesis 1:27.God Bless,

Hi NoNukes An open mind is the only mind that can learn, so hang on to it.As far as my claim goes.My claim is that everything in Genesis 2:4 -4:24 took place in the light period in which the heavens and the earth of Genesis 1:1 began to exist in.I believe Genesis 4:25 and 26 was added by a redactor or scribe to try and tie Genesis 2:4 through 4:24 to the story in chapter one making it one story instead of the two stories that they are.But regardless of how it got there if the man formed from the dust of the ground had a son named Seth he would have perished in the day God created the heavens and the earth.He would have not existed in the lineage of the man created in the image of God in Genesis 1:27. But there was a Seth in the lineage of the man created in the image of God as it is given in Genesis chapter 5.God Bless,

Hi NoNukes My claim was that Moses had people, places, and things.
But Moses knew nothing about a noun or proper noun as the word noun did not exist in his days.

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Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

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This is God's definition of day.Light whether the duration is 1 nanosecond of the duration of 1 trillion years equals 1 day.A period of light whether it be 1 nanosecond of duration or 1 trillion years of duration that ends in an evening when a period of darkness comes that is called night which has a duration of 1 nanosecond or the duration of 1 trillion years ends with a second light period equals 1 day.I will try to make this last day description a little shorter.
A light period followed by a dark period that ends with a second light period equals a day. So you will make a language that has been dead for over 2,000 years a modern language. I do not mind calling the name of people, places, and things in Biblical Hebrew nouns.But I can assure you that Moses did not call them nouns.God Bless,

Hi Faith, Faith the problem with the YECs version is that the man created in the image of God in Genesis 1:27 on the sixth day after all other life forms was never placed in a garden and was never forbidden from eating any fruit from any tree.

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Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

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The man formed from the dust of the ground which was the first life form on earth was placed in a garden and was forbidden from eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

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This man disobeyed God and ate the fruit and died in the same light period in which the heavens and the earth was created.So my version of an old earth has death as soon as this man disobeyed God's order.I have no gap only an extend duration of the first light period in which the heavens and the earth were created as this light period ends with the darkness of Genesis 1:2 and is declared day one at the end of the dark period which ended with the light period of the second day.The gap hypothesis is that the old earth was inhabited by angels who had fallen.I have no idea who these fallen angels could be as the Devil still had access to heaven in Job's day. He will be before the throne of God accusing the children of God who are killed during the Great Tribulation period. He will not be cast out of heaven until Jesus comes back to earth to set up His kingdom.Then there is the day age hypothesis where each of the days in Genesis are billions of years long to come out with an old age to satisfy science.This is my basic understanding of the gap and day age hypothesis.God Bless,

Hi NoNukes[qsNoNukes]If 4:25-6 are not inserts, then perhaps your interpretation is just incorrect.[/qs]Quit jumping to conclusions.I plainly stated that it did not make any difference whether they were inserts or not that if the man formed from the dust of the ground had a son named Seth he would have died in the day the heavens and the earth was created.That would eliminate that man from having any descendants after Genesis 1:2.God Bless,

Hi NoNukes Where does what I am saying require that a Seth if he was born to the man that was formed from the dust of the ground die before the day the heavens and the earth were created? Message 131
Message 127
Message 117
Message 104
Message 102
There is all 5 messages and what I said about the Seth of Genesis 4:26. Point out in the message where I said the Seth of Genesis 4:26 would have to die before the heavens and the earth were created. Why don't you list all those important consequences so we can discuss them instead of just saying you disagree with my conclusions. Just remember I do not believe in a gap. I believe in a 1 light period creation event in which the heavens and the earth were created and their history as given in Genesis 2:4-4:24 took place. And then 5 24 hour days in which 2 creation events took place, Genesis 1:21 and Genesis 1:27.God Bless,

Hi kbertsche When the definite article follows the Beit prefix it is absorbed into the Beit. Rashi believed the water came first then the solid part of the earth formed in the ball of water. Therefore he could not believe what the text says, as the earth could not exist prior to the water. Biblical Hebrew contains 22 letters, all of which are consonants.
There are no vowels at all. Alef, Waw, yod and He were used as consonantal vowels.
If you will double click on my avatar you will be looking at Genesis 1:1 as I studied it and as it would have been written originally. Most people do not know because they could care less about facts and just takes what someone else tells them as fact. So since Chalmers wrote about the gap theory a few years before Darwin wrote 'Origin of the Species'. Yet it is seized upon as the reason for the gap theory being invented.Most people know what they believe and it does not matter what the facts are and they don't want to be bothered with the facts, as they don't usually support their worldview.God Bless,

Hi kbertsche What part of the "Biblical Hebrew contains 22 letters, all of which are consonants", do you not understand.If all letters are consonants then no letters are vowels.There was no Masoretes marking until 1100 AD.In Biblical Hebrew which looks like my avatar the Alef, yod, waw, and He, were used as we use vowels. I thought they did it to revive a dead language and be able to speak it. They did not finish their work until around 1100 AD which was started around 700 AD and there is no copies of any text they worked on from the time they started as they destroyed all of them.Moses would not be able to read the modern Masorete text but he could read my avatar.Today, many people believe that the Masoretic Text represents the original Hebrew, and that the Septuagint is less trustworthy because it is just a translation. In fact, the Dead Sea Scrolls testify that the Septuagint is actually more faithful to the original Hebrew than the Masoretic Text is.Get over it, Biblical Hebrew had no vowels period other than consonants.God Bless,

Hi kbertsche Good we got that out of the way.Now what do you do with the consonants that were used as we use vowels today?
The Alef א, the Yod י, the Waw ו, and the He ה were used as we use vowels today. Sure it can, when you use the language as written.
(ABE)The Torah had to be read every year. The Masoretes added the vowel to the Hebrew text so they could control what the text said, and to revive a dead language.If we are studying the written word there is no need to be able to speak what is written down.As I said Moses could read what is in my avatar but he could not read any of the Hebrew text that is written with any other form of letters.So if you could go back in time and hand Moses a copy of the Masorete text he would not be able to read one word of it.So what did the Masoretes preserve?Many of the DDS were written in the Hebrew like in my avatar and others in the square letters of modern Hebrew. Here is a quote from one website concerning the DDS.

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Scholars commonly speak of "Qumran Hebrew" as a literary Hebrew dialect. Some Scrolls from the Qumran caves have certain distinctive features, such as the use of "plene" spelling (using the letters י ,י ,ה ,א to indicate vowels), which scholars have identified as "Qumran Scribal Practice." The documents from the refuge caves of the Judean Desert are written in a less formal Hebrew.

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The Dead Sea Scrolls - Languages and Scripts God Bless,Edited by ICANT, : To insert

Hi NoNukes Sure it is if you park your assumptions you have reached before you examine the text.Return to that open mind you mentioned and read Genesis 1:1, 2:4, 1:5, Isaiah 45:18, Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23-26.Apply Occam's Razor and then tell me what the simplest meaning of each verse is.God Bless,