|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,927 Year: 4,184/9,624 Month: 1,055/974 Week: 14/368 Day: 14/11 Hour: 2/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
The scriptures also contain my phone number if you know how to read them properly (and if you already have the information that you want to "extract"). But if you actually read the scriptures, not so much.
The scriptures do in fact indicate two comings of Christ if you know how to read them properly.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
So he built a metaphor, not a temple.
...how he rebuilt the temple, not as a building, but in the hearts of those that are followers of His message of loving others as we love ourselves.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
And yet the Jews don't accept Jesus as "the Temple" - so you can't use their concept of the Temple to back up your claim.
For the Jews the Temple was where one could go to meet with God, or in other words the Temple was where God 's world or dimension overlapped with our world or dimension. GDR writes:
Which has nothing to do with Him being the Messiah.
Jesus said that the overlap occurred in the hearts of those that had faith in His message of loving others as they loved themselves, and went further in saying that the temple had been corrupted..
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Well, according to your quotes it was the epistle writers who were redefining the idea of Temple - and they were doing it after Jesus had already died and failed to fulfill the requirements to be the Messiah. In other words Jesus was redefining the idea of Temple. Was Napoleon the Anti-Christ? Let's just redefine Anti-Christ to fit Napoleon.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes, and as you point out, that idea may go back as far as Daniel or farther. But it's a separate idea from the Messiah actually rebuilding a physical temple.
The author(s) used a metaphor to teach and/or encourage the reader that we ourselves can be a temple of the Holy Spirit.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Would it be any clearer if I said you can MISuse any book?
But as you said, I can use writing in any book in any timeframe and in any context to support a claim. Phat writes:
Who am I to determine that the owner's handbook for a 1965 Pontiac Parisienne was meant for the owners of 1965 Pontiac Paresiennes? A sane person. You can pretend it was meant for teaching Vietnamese cooking if you want but who's going to take you seriously?
Who are you to determine that a particular book or scroll was meant only for the jews of that time? Phat writes:
Exactly. You can draw a parallel between any two things if you jump through enough hoops. That's my point: You can draw parallels between Jesus and the Messiah by doing the appropriate gymnastics but that doesn't mean the prophets meant Jesus when they said Messiah.
We could redefine anti-christ to fit Donald Trump or we could even show a similarity between Donald Trumps ego and Napoleons.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
So Jesus redefined the prophecies to point to Himself. Is that self-serving at all?
It was Jesus who redefined how establishing the Kingdom and the rebuilding of the Temple was to be accomplished.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Your reasoning is circular: He was the Messiah, so he redefined what the Messiah was to suit Himself.
He understood that was His God given vocation and a vocation that would lead to his death.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That's pretty much a separate issue from the Messiah. Jesus taught the Jews how to be better Jews. That doesn't make Him the Messiah. Jesus simply understood through study and prayer what God actually had to say through the reading of their scriptures. It wasn't about getting God to serve themselves but about getting them to serve others. I tend to agree that Jesus' teachings are a better idea than a military conqueror. But Christians should concentrate on those teachings and let go of the idea of Messiah. He may have been better than the Messiah but he was no Messiah.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
There's little point in a prophecy that's "fulfilled" in an unexpected way. I've predicted that Donald Trump will win the US Presidency; if he doesn't, I can always say it was a "moral" victory - but of course it will really mean that I was wrong.
He fulfilled the messianic requirements, but not in the way the majority of Israelites expected.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Jesus' self-understanding is irrelevant. A prophecy that nobody can understand before the fact is worthless.
If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
Or... the little boy donating his lunch prompted other people to share their lunches. There's no need to bring up any nonsense about vegetarianism.
They ate the fish, but was it from a killed animal or "3-d printed" "lab-grown type meat" (with no killing)?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?
They are super duper important when it comes to the history of the early church. And the beliefs.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
What's the difference between what people think the prophecies mean and what people think God intended?
The point isn't about what people think they mean. The important part is what God intended. GDR writes:
If the people who wrote the Old Testament can't be relied on to convey God's intent, how can the people who wrote the New Testament be relied on to convey Jesus' history?
Again, if Jesus is resurrected then we can have confidence that Jesus had it right, and subsequent to that a great many people have come to believe that Jesus got it right.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
So tell us something.
ringo writes:
Everything. What does it have to do with messianic prophecies? LamarkNewAge writes:
The "New Age of peace and no killing" has nothing to do with vegetarianism. It's only about killing people.
The Temple destruction and ending of sacrifices with its associated New Age of peace and no killing is very important.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024