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Author | Topic: Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
They are super duper important when it comes to the history of the early church. And the beliefs.
Steve Mason, in his Early Christian Reader, said that the discovery of the multi volume work of Hegesippus would be more important for the knowledge of the early church than the Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi texts. He visited every church in all the major towns in the 2nd century, and wrote a history that stretched back to the first century. hegesippus important early history - Google Search hegesippus james vegetarian - Google Search This specific book below looks at the early texts that say James, Matthew, Peter, and Thomas were vegetarians. It is hostile to the idea that they were vegetarian. Is God a Vegetarian?: Christianity, Vegetarianism, and Animal Rights - Richard Alan Young - Google Books The Ebionite related Elkesaites existed 100 A.D. and they were vegetarian. This doesn't seem to matter to some, but it is important evidence to me. 1 Corinthians 8:10-13 and Romans 14:1-15:1 matters to me alot. So does Acts 15-21 and the related issue.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I quoted this:
"The clean/unclean system divided animals, people, and land into three categories to teach separation from the Gentiles" The response was:
quote: People say that the ceremonial precepts involving ritual purity are the only issues relative to meat prohibitions. Out with the ceremonial precepts, and out with any issues related to eating food being a sin. It isn't even true that the ban on pork was ceremonial. And it isn't true that eating pork was allowed by Jesus and James (or Paul or Peter). This false premise has been a real discussion stopper.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
One could argue that the very thing that makes an enemy an enemy is the bad spirit within them. Some argue that we humans have the means and responsibility to do what is right. Others argue that the very thing that causes wars is intrinsic evil...greed...idolatry....lust....pride....etc. By resurrecting from the dead, the Messiah conquered the enemy. It is now up to us to give Him the territory He conquered. The enemies weren't conquered, though. The Jews were promptly conquered by the Romans. History is replete with examples of Jews suffering at the hands of their enemies.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Here is the entire context. This is after he died and rose.
quote: He was already dead, and a story arises that he ate fish. This text shows endless signs of editing. The better manuscripts don't have the honeycomb part in it, and the evidence is like 100% that part wasn't in the original c.90 AD writing of Luke. Granted the fish part is still in there. But did you read Luke 1:1-4? Luke plainly admits that he used numerous sources and that his Gospel was late. Mark shows evidence of severe editing in chapter 16 (the parallel to Luke 24). Luke stands alone in this fish part. Endless clues of an unauthentic event with regards to the fish part. There is another issue in Luke. People claim Jesus ate the passover Lamb. But here is the text.
quote: Read on and you will see that this specific text ooks like this very event was supposed to replace the Passover lamb. And a lamb being killed wasn't mentioned here anyway. This Passover meal is actually used by people to claim Christians should eat meat (or at least that they should be allowed to). Unreal! How full of it can you get?
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: If Jesus is resurrected by God then we can have confidence in Jesus' self understanding.ringo writes:
Well we don't actually know whether or not anybody else understood the messianic prophesies the way Jesus did. What we do see in the Gospels are people who understood them in the way that would benefit them. So what? That seems to be a big part of human nature. Jesus' self-understanding is irrelevant. A prophecy that nobody can understand before the fact is worthless. The point isn't about what people think they mean. The important part is what God intended. Again, if Jesus is resurrected then we can have confidence that Jesus had it right, and subsequent to that a great many people have come to believe that Jesus got it right.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
What does it have to do with messianic prophecies?
They are super duper important when it comes to the history of the early church. And the beliefs.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Taq writes: The enemies weren't conquered, though. The Jews were promptly conquered by the Romans. History is replete with examples of Jews suffering at the hands of their enemies. But Jesus redefined the enemy with the enemy being evil itself with the ultimate evil being death. Jesus showed that being killed by the Romans was not the final answer when God resurrected Him. Jesus said that the way to defeat the Romans, or any other embodiment of evil, is through turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, loving your enemy etc. Ultimately it is about reflecting God's love into the world so that hearts are changed and turned away from evil.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Did you know that the Gospel of Thomas (logos 12) shows Jesus making James the leader of the church?
This Gospel is a very valuable source as it contains the primitive (pre Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) Logoi formt, and infact that very sayings/logoi themselves are of a more primitive text type than what is in the Synoptics and John. This link has the saying and shows all sorts of comments by scholars on the saying. Gospel of Thomas Saying 12 - GospelThomas.com Here is a google link to follow the issue. Galatians 1-2 shows Paul talking about James and his importance. Acts 15-21 is priceless. Josephus mentions only and only 1 Christian - James! The most important church historian was Hegesippus. Google"Saint Hegesippus (Ἅγιος Ἡγήσιππος) (c. 110 — c. April 7, 180 AD), was a Christian chronicler of the early Church who may have been a Jewish convert and " Here is what he said of James.
quote: The scripture says Jesus was a Nazarin , so perhaps this type of practice (among Jesus followers) came from Jesus? I don't know but it must be considered. This is not nonsense. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Everything. The Temple destruction and ending of sacrifices with its associated New Age of peace and no killing is very important. Indeed.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
What's the difference between what people think the prophecies mean and what people think God intended?
The point isn't about what people think they mean. The important part is what God intended. GDR writes:
If the people who wrote the Old Testament can't be relied on to convey God's intent, how can the people who wrote the New Testament be relied on to convey Jesus' history?
Again, if Jesus is resurrected then we can have confidence that Jesus had it right, and subsequent to that a great many people have come to believe that Jesus got it right.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LamarkNewAge writes:
So tell us something.
ringo writes:
Everything. What does it have to do with messianic prophecies? LamarkNewAge writes:
The "New Age of peace and no killing" has nothing to do with vegetarianism. It's only about killing people.
The Temple destruction and ending of sacrifices with its associated New Age of peace and no killing is very important.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
TaborBlog – Page 7 – Religion Matters from the Bible to the Modern World
Wow! This is one of the finest historians to follow on the early Church. He knows the importance of James. (James the brother of Jesus). He makes honest efforts. Ironically,when I put "James vegetarian" into a search engine, James Cameron came up. Ironic because he makes an honest effort to learn about the early church (including archaeological discoveries on James the Just). That wasn't what came up in the search engine hit on him. His vegetarianism was the issue. I wish people would spend more time listening to honest searchers of truth as opposed to dishonest folks like Darrell Bock and Paul Maier jr.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: The Zoroastrians have texts that parallel Revelation 20. They say that to get to the 3000 year Judgment Day, people have to first stop eating meat. Ironic because that religion allows meat to be eaten. Hebrews 10 to 11 talk about the ending of the sacrifice after the death of Jesus. Ebionite texts are a valuable witness on this as are the Elkesaites. Romans 14 to 15:1 and 1 Corinthians 8:10-13 does seem to have commands that lead to vegetarianism. James seems to have been a strict vegetarian. I think the bulk of the evidence goes against your sentence.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Vegetarians eat stuff that got killed. Sorry but that's a fact and the topic of vegetarianism in this thread is just another total irrelevancy per usual.
My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: The Temple, Passover, and sacrifices aren't important then? Everything other than "j-a-r" is irrelevant it seems.
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