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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Trump's order on immigration and the wacko liberal response | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't want to argue with your nonsense any more, but I'll say that if you don't hate evil you are not a Christian. And not one thing I've said expresses an iota of fear, that's your own projection.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But surely many Muslims are good people, too. And you did argue that Catholics should be denied the right to hold political office because of the threat they posed. If Catholics have failed to take over the U.S. despite all their advantages, why should Muslims be considered a threat ? I already said more than once that Muslims are not bad people. I even quoted that very line from the post on the 109 verses that advocate killing or otherwise dominating and persecuting nonMuslims. They said this is not about bad people, it's about bad ideology. And that's the same thing with the RCC. Some Catholics have a very simple Christian view, but most Catholics believe pagan lies that have made up the core of superstition the RCC has embraced bit by bit down the centuries, which is what prompted the Protestant Reformation. Muslims too may practice a simple benign form of their religion, OR they may embrace the violence in it. They are personally dangerous to others because of their violent ideology, whereas the Catholics are merely personally deceived and deprived of genuine Christian belief. It is the Vatican, the papacy, that is dangerous when they are in power as they were throughout the Middle Ages in Europe. When that happens Catholics will be forced to choose between the papacy and their own inherent sense of righteousness.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
i.e. Christians are just as "evil" as Muslims. Read the other posts. You are missing the point. I'm using "evil" in the sense of doing intentional harm to others, not in the sense of being sinners, and it is the IDEOLOGY that prescribes this evil, it is NOT ABOUT THE PEOPLE, THE MUSLIMS THEMSELVES. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is no other reasonable conclusion considering that so many have testified that Sessions has an excellent civil rights record.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thank you for that bit of psychoanalysis. Sure makes posting at EvC a delightful experience when I get such intelligent insightful appraisals of my character undermining every true thing I say.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Do I have to keep reinventing the wheel here? I've answered this thousands of times already. Maybe I can do it again, but later.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What you're inventing is not a wheel. It's fiction. Prove it. All of you, prove it, you're just slinging lies and accusations. I've proved my point honestly and thoroughly.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes, a very nice Syrian named Khalid, and many Iranians.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No I am not praying for the end times because I have friends and family who will suffer terribly then. I pray for them to be saved along with many others, even the deceived posters at EvC, so that they won't have to go through that horror.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Let me try another approach. In the Bible, it states that God decrees that the punishment for working on the Sabbath is being stoned to death. That's pretty clear - there's no confusion apparent in the verse - you work on a Sunday, you're dead, end of story. The death penalty expresses the extreme importance God attaches to the sanctity of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is symbolic of the rest of God to be brought to believers through Christ. It is holy. The laws are clear. The punishment for disobedience does not come out of the blue, the Sabbath has been preached and preached and preached so punishment for breaking it is known to all Israel. There is no way anyone could just inadvertently violate it. Anyone who violates it does so in complete knowledge of its importance. You don't just happen to need to collect some firewood on the Sabbath, to do that you would have to be intentionally insulting God and undermining the seriousness of the law in the minds of other Israelites, which itself is a great crime. The reason Christians don't literally obey this law is that Christ has come, the true Sabbath rest is ours, completely fulfilled. Similarly Jesus has fulfilled all the Law, but this is to explain this particular law. I will have to come back to this. I'm hearing a good discussion of the Berkeley riots and have to hear them out. Later.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But you won't suffer? According to the theology I'm talking about, Christians will not suffer God's wrath, which is distinguished from all the other kinds of suffering from persecutions of all kinds including those being suffered across the world at the hands of Muslims as we speak, to torture by the Inquisition, all of which is just normal everyday tribulation or sufferings to be expected by believers. God's wrath is understood to be on a completely different level and it is reserved for those who have refused the gospel, and it is something not to be wished on anybody. Again I'm talking from the perspective of this particular theology, which I am not completely convinced of yet myself but which does seem to have a fair amount of biblical support. Since the Inquisition performed some pretty exquisite tortures as well as beheadings on Christians, and Islam is doing similar things to nonMuslims in Africa and other parts of the world as we speak, I'm not entirely sure what makes the Great Tribulation, or God's Wrath, so much more horrible, but that is the idea as I understand it. Extreme natural disasters, ravening wild beasts, extreme famines and plagues and horrific diseases and that sort of thing may be what make the difference. It is unbelievers who are to experience the Great Tribulation, and Christians are to miss it, if this theology that includes the "pre-Tribulation Rapture" is correct. I make periodic efforts to pin it all down biblically and find it difficult to do, but I think this outline is pretty much the gist of this theology. s
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
In the Bible, it states that God decrees that the punishment for working on the Sabbath is being stoned to death. That's pretty clear - there's no confusion apparent in the verse - you work on a Sunday, you're dead, end of story. There's no verse that explicitly states that that requirement is repealed. I'm a lawyer, and I can tell you that I would need a lot more clarity before I advised a client to work on a Sabbath, if we were governed by biblical law. Their relatives would sue the pants off me if I did. I hope I've made the point that the Sabbath has been fulfilled and that it was given to Israel in any case and not to anyone else. We don't just reinterpret things, there are clearcut historical reasons why the Law no longer applies to Christians, reasons foreshadowed in the Old Testament but fulfilled in the New. As I understand it some sects of Islam reinterpret some of the language in their sacred writings in a spiritualized way that removes the physical violence, and that's probably because they are better people than their religion; but other sects call that hypocrisy and the actual language in the books is so clearly physical the spiritual interpretations sound rather flimsy and subjective, and there is nothing really certain about them. I'd certainly rather admit to the country those who are members of the spiritualizing sects of course, however tenuous that system of thought. There has also always been some confusion about Christian interpretations of the Bible, but they aren't just subjectively determined, there are historical and theological contexts that define their meaning, making them more stable it seems to me. And in any case none of them promotes any kind of violence against anybody.
Now I know that you and other Christians believe that Jesus wiped away that law - and I'm extremely happy you do. Um, He didn't "wipe it away," He fulfilled it so that we are freed from its judgment of it. Most of the Moral Law is still in operation because it's a universal law that operates inexorably on all of humanity, because we are made in God's image, whether or not it is recognized in any given culture. But that may be a nitpick in this context. In any case, wherever the Sabbath is still observed, since some Christian sects do still believe in observing it, it is recognized to be fulfilled in Christ even among them, and it is not enforced by the severe punishments of the OT. I've been part of a church that preached that we should honor the Sabbath Day by making it a day spent in honoring God and quiet forms of recreation, and avoiding all the forms of work we do the rest of the week; but that's hardly to be compared with how the Israelites were taught to observe the Sabbath. I think it probably was punished in some of the Puritan colonies but not by the death penalty and I'm not even sure it was punished at all so take it with a grain of salt. I always thought it was nice when businesses closed on Sunday, one day a week when work stopped in honor of God. No punishments, just a nice custom. That's really as far as any western country will go to honor the Sabbath these days so you don't have to worry how you deal with your clients.
But the basis upon which you believe that is very convoluted. Not really. Sometimes people are confused about what it means, but I think the explanation I've given above should sort it out pretty well.
It involves interpretations and references to history and practice, and above all an appeal to belief. You turn to scholarly debate and interpretation, because the language is completely nonspecific and vague and open to interpretation. So when we point out that the Bible advocates this brutal practice, you tell us that a proper Christian interpretation is that this is an incorrect view. Well, yes and no. I think it should be answered as I answered it in the previous post. It is about the extreme importance of the Sabbath in God's relationship; with the nation of Israel, so that to profane it or violate it was an extreme offense and deserved an extreme punishment, and again, there wouldn't have been a single soul among the Israelites who hadn't heard the law thousands of times, making them inescapably guilty if they disobeyed it. I would guess nobody did ever disobey it for that reason, unless it was during those periods when the Law was forgotten, which did happen. But since nobody in those times knew the Law anyway, nobody would have been punished either.
And that is precisely what the vast majority of Muslims do when it comes to the Quran. They explain why their religion does not in fact include following the more outrageous and brutal things that people can cherry pick if they're minded to. I don't consider anything in the Law of God to be "brutal." abe: Or let me rephraise that: it's not GRATUITOUSLY brutal which is what you mean. /abe The Law is very clear and its punishments are clear and they apply only to the nation of Israel anyway. I'm very glad there are Islamic sects that interpret away the violence in their writings, but there really isn't any comparison. They are explaining away actual commands for the reader to commit violence against unbelievers. The reason we don't follow the Old Testament Law is theologically explained by the mission of Christ, but there was never any command to the reader to hurt anyone.
So you're allowing yourself to explain away the brutal aspects of the Bible, but not allowing Muslims to explain away the brutal aspects of the Quran. As usual I think there is a failure here to understand the different contexts involved.
There's the basic problem. Seems to me this basic problem is due to your inability or disinclination to recognize the clearly different contexts.
(And the double standard is not explained by the lying thing - the vast majority of Muslims take the relevant passages (which are pretty broad, and don't say what you've been told they say) to mean they can lie about being a Muslim to save themselves from being killed etc., not as a nefarious method of taking over the world).
In context that is exactly what it means, and it is not reserved for that one dire situation in any case. And Christians by the way are forbidden to lie to protect ourselves. That is considered to be betraying Christ.
And of course there are extremist fundamentalist Muslims who are vile specimens of humanity - No, I don't believe that. I don't think any of this has to do with the character of the people themselves. It's not Muslims, it's the ideology of Islam that is the problem. What turns one Muslim into a jihadi and not another is probably not some shared characteristic among the two groups. Sometimes the Muslim may be an idealist captivated by the idea of dying for God; sometimes it may be a Muslim who feels he has nothing left to live for. The Muslims who took the planes to their doom on 9/11 were known to be very nice intelligent guys in their regular lives.
just as there are extremist fundamentalist believers of other faiths. The more "fundamentalist" a Christian becomes, the more the Bible is taken to heart, and therefore the more kind and self-sacrificing he becomes and the less inclined to fleshly expressions of violence. It's all in the ideology, in the books rather than in the person. The fundamentalist Muslim is steeped in commands to violence, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his personality, it's all about the ideology.
But they are in the overall minority - most people of faith in my experience are broadly kind, attentive and peace-loving. I'm glad, but you absolutely misunderstand the dynamics involved in these two religions.
So apply the same standards - either admit that the Bible is a brutal, warmongering, tribal handbook, or do what you want us to do with you, and listen to what actual Muslims actually say about their faith. Sorry, you've got it all upside down and backwards. I truly AM sorry. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
THEY ARE ALREADY ENEMIES by their ideology. Millions of muslims live peacefully and thankfully in the US. Islam is not our enemy. When we start discriminating against muslims based on their religious beliefs, then we are showing ourselves to be an enemy of Islam. It is really that simple. I could have been clearer because I always mean to say it's the IDEOLOGY THAT IS OUR ENEMY. Any Muslim however holds that ideology. If they belong to a moderate sect they will spiritualize the violent teachings, but unless you know exactly who those are, you don't know who is an enemy or not. Again, it's about the IDEOLOGY they hold, it is not about the people themselves. We ARE an enemy of Islam, not Muslims as such but ISLAM, the IDEOLOGY that is SHEER EVIL. What we need to know about individual Muslims is what form of the ideology they hold, and since that is subject to fluctuation even that doesn't guarantee a permanent attitude of peace.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
could have been clearer because I always mean to say it's the IDEOLOGY THAT IS OUR ENEMY. Millions of muslims living peacefully in the US, contributing at every level in our economy, disproves your claim. No it doesn't. You've missed the whole point. You don't get it and I guess you won't until it reaches critical mass. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Christians have killed more Americans in the USA than muslims since 9/11. Evidence please.
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