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Author | Topic: Y.E.C. Model: Was there rapid evolution and speciation post flood? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
bluegenes Member (Idle past 2508 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Percy writes: Faith doesn't have a problem with more than 2 alleles. What she has a problem with is more than 2 alleles where the additional alleles do anything different than the original alleles. She claims that the new alleles must do the same things the old alleles did, i.e., have the same functions as the old alleles. She claims that the new alleles cannot have new functions. Then research on the HLA-B gene alone proves her wrong. The variant alleles produce different proteins and definite differences in immune reactions. Here's a paper that shows differences in producing immune reactions to a measles vaccine. Three HLA-B alleles are identified that perform particularly badly, and two that perform particularly well, with others in between.
Variance in HLA-B performance against measles. quote:
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Percy writes: What she has a problem with is more than 2 alleles where the additional alleles do anything different than the original alleles. That was the context I was using. If Faith defines alleles by function then there are more than two alleles for that gene.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I think more than just one gene must be at work, because the Wikipedia article on Blood Type says that "33 blood-group systems have been identified, including the ABO and Rh systems. The ABO gene is a single gene with only three alleles. Perhaps this direct statement will clear up the confusion. ABO blood group system - Wikipedia(gene)
quote: Edited by NoNukes, : terminology correction. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I can't pin it down in detail for rabbits, but skin/hair color in humans is governed by many genes, so the same must be true of other mammals. I provided a reference for this before. Since the reference (khanacademy) was possibly not a persuasive one, I will provide a second one here: Color Genetics: The C Series - Full Color, Chinchilla, Sable, Himalayan or Pointed White, & REW | The Nature Trail
quote: So there are multiple genes that affect color, but among those genes, the functionality of the c gene and its affect on how the color is expressed is well known. So you have a point regarding the system for determining fur color, and yet we still have an example to discuss. Namely, a single gene controlling an easily visible phenotypic parameter with multiple alleles at a single location. Five alleles for that particular gene have been identified. Given that, I don't really care whether or not Faith was serious about accepting the example. Again if I were arguing the other side, I would point out that there are no real limits to how many rabbits were specially created so there is not a hard limit of only four total alleles for a gene as there is for humans. Perhaps for the sake of this argument, human examples are best. My argument for the ABO gene being a further example is similar. Even if ABO is not the complete picture for blood type, that gene does have a definite and functional expression on human phenotype and accordingly is a legitimate example of a gene with more than two alleles. From wikipedia.
quote: Edited by NoNukes, : fix quote tags Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
This is yet another example of a human gene with more than 2 alleles. I understand that. My question is why we would not allow Adam and Eve to possess four alleles between them. I understand from wikipedia that there are more, somewhat rare, alleles for ABO type, so that the number in question exceeds even the three. However, I don't have any information regarding functionality. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
bluegenes writes: Here's a paper that shows differences in producing immune reactions to a measles vaccine. Three HLA-B alleles are identified that perform particularly badly, and two that perform particularly well, with others in between.
Variance in HLA-B performance against measles. quote: So let me combine this with other data from the Wikipedia article on the HLA-B gene. In most cases the designation (e.g., B7) represents multiple alleles that are grouped together because of their similar function. I didn't include the broad antigens from the table at Wikipedia because I didn't understand their relationship to the antigens listed on the same line.
What this table tells us is that we know very little about which HLA-B alleles protect against which pathogens. For most of them all that is known is that they're associated with the immune system, or that they're associated with disease, which is consistent with Faith's assertion that mutations are only harmful. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Taq writes: That was the context I was using. If Faith defines alleles by function then there are more than two alleles for that gene. I know Faith claims an original 2 alleles, so the three beta-hemoglobin alleles just force her to concede that there were an original 4 alleles maximum. Just for completeness, here are those three beta-hemoglobin alleles plus another couple I found at the Wikipedia article on HBB
The Wikipedia article says there are "numerous HBB variants", but I couldn't find more than 4 different functions, and you need more than 4 alleles with different functions. --Percy
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Percy writes: What this table tells us is that we know very little about which HLA-B alleles protect against which pathogens. You can add influenza to the list: "To study whether individual HLA class I alleles are used preferentially or equally in human virus-specific CTL responses, the contribution of individual HLA-A and -B alleles to the human influenza virus-specific CTL response was investigated. To this end, PBMC were obtained from three groups of HLA-A and -B identical blood donors and stimulated with influenza virus. In the virus-specific CD8(+) T cell population, the proportion of IFN-gamma- and TNF-alpha-producing cells, restricted by individual HLA-A and -B alleles, was determined using virus-infected C1R cells expressing a single HLA-A or -B allele for restimulation of these cells. In HLA-B*2705- and HLA-B*3501-positive individuals, these alleles were preferentially used in the influenza A virus-specific CTL response, while the contribution of HLA-B*0801 and HLA-A*0101 was minor in these donors."Preferential HLA usage in the influenza virus-specific CTL response - PubMed
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
NoNukes writes: So there are multiple genes that affect color, but among those genes, the functionality of the c gene and its affect on how the color is expressed is well known. So you have a point regarding the system for determining fur color, and yet we still have an example to discuss. Namely, a single gene controlling an easily visible phenotypic parameter with multiple alleles at a single location. Five alleles for that particular gene have been identified. Can we get a list of those alleles and their functions?
Again if I were arguing the other side, I would point out that there are no real limits to how many rabbits were specially created so there is not a hard limit of only four total alleles for a gene as there is for humans. Perhaps for the sake of this argument, human examples are best. There's still the ark bottleneck. There could be at most four original alleles for unclean animals and 28 for clean. But I agree, human examples are best.
My argument for the ABO gene being a further example is similar. Even if ABO is not the complete picture for blood type, that gene does have a definite and functional expression on human phenotype and accordingly is a legitimate example of a gene with more than two alleles. Faith should give up on her insistence that there were an original two alleles. She has no basis for the claim, and it just makes her position unnecessarily more insensible. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
This is a reissue of the table of HLA-B allele groups based on information provided by Taq:
--Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Can we get a list of those alleles and their functions? It was in the reference, but perhaps pulling that out is not a high priority given what we agreed on with respect to animals.
There's still the ark bottleneck. There could be at most four original alleles for unclean animals and 28 for clean. There is also the matter of how kind is defined. It is not the same thing as species. Too much trouble to establish an upper limit for rabbit alleles if we can find human examples.
Faith should give up on her insistence that there were an original two alleles. She has no basis for the claim, and it just makes her position unnecessarily more insensible. There is some basis. Eve was formed completely from material taken from Adam. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
NoNukes writes: There is some basis. Eve was formed completely from material taken from Adam. But wouldn't God have had to change the alleles for Eve's genes, else Eve would have just been a clone of Adam? At a minimum he would have had to change the Y chromosome to an X. In creating the Eve's new X chromosome he wouldn't have just been changing alleles, he would have been creating entire new genes that don't exist on the Y chromosome. Given that we know God must have made genetic changes while creating Eve, I don't think any claims can be made as to its extent and that it must be allowed that an original gene could have had a maximum of four alleles. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Fix mixup between X and Y.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2508 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Percy writes: What this table tells us is that we know very little about which HLA-B alleles protect against which pathogens. For most of them all that is known is that they're associated with the immune system, or that they're associated with disease, which is consistent with Faith's assertion that mutations are only harmful. With enough research involving enough strains of enough pathogens, all could eventually be associated with disease, because none can cover all the ground of our many and ever varying parasites. You can add B63, B57, and B58 as having a positive effect against HIV; B44, B52,B62,B76, andB77 as having a positive effect against Dengue fever; B53 having a positive effect against Malaria; and B35, which you've got down as being bad news for those infected by HIV, is good news against infection with Prurigo Hebra (a skin disease). Ultimately, with enough knowledge, we should find good and bad news for them all. Variety is selected for, and individual alleles face positive selection every time something they're particularly effective against sweeps a local population (B53 is at high levels of frequency in malarial areas of West Africa, for example).
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Percy Member Posts: 22506 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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Okay, reissuing the table again:
This is already more than four alleles with positive effects. --Percy
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2508 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Percy writes: This is already more than four alleles with positive effects. We could find plenty more, and your own pair of HLA-B alleles could have saved your life many times without us knowing. We tend to identify alleles that perform poorly against certain diseases because we're looking at the genes of the sick, not the healthy. But failing on one disease doesn't mean a negative mutant. The alleles failing at measles could have saved those kids' ancestors from smallpox for all we know. When an allele is very successful, like B53 against West African malaria, the success can actually cause problems. More and more people could become homozygous on the B gene, therefore decreasing their range of immunity against other things. Also, if a mutant strain of malaria arrived that could avoid recognition by B53, there could be big problems, and that new strain would become dominant. But variety means there could always be rarer alleles present that could cope with the new strain, so variety makes the species strong.
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