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Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Faith and Phat claim it is the same thing as the Spirit of Christ in Romans 8:9
I request as many sources from Paul's epistles as Faith & Phat can find to clarify the Pauline view. (Can you understand that Faith? I will be happy to clarify if the request makes no sense )
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I can't find any other verses that have the same distinction you are asking for. I'm sure the following isn't what you want but it's the best I can find. But your whole preoccupation seems nonsensical to me and unnecessary.
Jhn 1:33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. Jhn 7:39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Act 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 1Co 12:3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
FIRST THING:
I am not going to be able to fathom how you can accuse me of being full of nonsense simply because I am interested in understanding the Pauline view of the Holy Spirit. I remember when you used to argue with me when I said that the Council of Nicea should be seen as totally unimportant and irrelevant to the teachings of the 1st century founders of (what would become ) Christianity. You strongly insisted on the importance of the 4th century Trinity doctrine and seemed to be saying that salvation rode on whether individuals accepted or rejected Constantine's 325 AD church council . (Have you grown out of that my mindset in the last 18 months? ) SECOND : Can we stick with the (genuine and disputed in terms of authentic Pauline authorship ) Epistles of Paul, since they are chronologically the most early. Nobody doubts Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians in the first 1/3 of the 50s in the first century. The rest of the epistles were all written before 62 AD. The authentic ones anyway. The technology of recent decades (computers ) have backed up the single author of the 7 authentic Pauline Epistles. Both fundamentalists and the "Jesus never existed" crowd should value the Pauline epistles as an area of extreme chronological importance. THIRD You did quote from 1 Cor 12:3 . Do you want to interpret the verse? Is that the only Holy Spirit verse? We can get to Acts quotes of Paul, but the book probably was written after 90 AD FOURTH Can you please show us how the quotes are consistent with the Council of Nicea?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What DOES The Bible say?
I was reading the Athanasian Creed recently. To wit: quote: Martin Luther was quoted summing it up this way:
quote:Thus Luther takes Colossians 2:9 as his Biblical snippet justifying the Trinitarian Doctrine. Do you know much about the history of how the Athanasian Creed came about?Hopefully, it was motivated by a desire for clarity rather than political ulterior motives...I will have to study it more. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes I know how it came about. Athanasius was answering the heretics of his day. I know he answered those who refused to recognize that Jesus Christ is God, and he may also have dealt with those who had what is called a "modalist" view that pictures God switching from Father to Son and Holy Spirit as different modes of His Being rather than existing as three separate Persons all equally God and Lord. Athanasius was a man of integrity serving God and the Church honestly and not from any "political" motives.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Do you know much about the history of how the Athanasian Creed came about?Hopefully, it was motivated by a desire for clarity rather than political ulterior motives...I will have to study it more. Of course it was motivated by the need to define one point as authoritative; a political motive as usual. The only purpose for things like heresy are political; it is declaring some group out and a different group in. Being political is not bad or good, it is simply a reflection of reality. But let's look at your cite:
Colossians 2:9 writes: 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Please point out the part that references the Trinity? But wait; there's more. Let's look at all of Colossians 2.
quote: There is absolutely nothing in there even vaguely related to the concept of the Trinity and in fact the chapter in Colossians seems to be condemning practices like declaring heresy or taking a single line totally out of context or of using proof texts and in fact almost all of the practices of Evangelical Biblical Christianity. I'm glad you brought this up since it is such a classic example of the utterly silly lengths apologists and marketeers go to to try to create support for their preferred dogma. Edited by jar, : get rid of random smilies
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Thats exactly what I have been asking myself lately as I struggle with believing in a God that does not help me nor favor me in any way. He may as well not exist, though I still believe that he does.
If God isn't useful to us, what's the point of having a God?ringo writes: The father analogy does not help me relate to God...mainly because my father always took care of me and provided help from the day I was 5 until the day he passed (I was 17). He left money for the family and I essentially lived on that money supplemented by my own income for 30 years. Now, as I struggle with getting older and paying my bills, I feel abandoned by God as father figure. I refuse, however, to embrace the ridiculous ideas brought forth here at EvC that disprove and discredit God and Jesus as real presences in human lives.
To recap: The Bible emphasizes a metaphorical father-child relationship between God and His people. I contend that that relationship implies an obligation to protect His people. His people expect that protection (e.g. Psalm 23). You don't seem to feel inclined to refute my contention with Biblical references, so the contention stands. Phat writes:
Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also?ringo writes: Perhaps Jesus, being human, was the finite piece. Since He is connected to an infinite God, (at one end) and an infinite Holy Spirit(at the other end) He becomes One with them. Draw the line. You can only divide it at finite places. You can't have three infinite pieces when you only have two infinite ends. The only problem I would hypthetically have now is reasoning why there needs to be a GOD (The Father) and a Holy Spirit. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You admit that God is not a real presence in your life. So why do you call our ideas "ridiculous"?
I refuse, however, to embrace the ridiculous ideas brought forth here at EvC that disprove and discredit God and Jesus as real presences in human lives. Phat writes:
That might actually work. But can you live with Jesus being finite?
ringo writes:
Perhaps Jesus, being human, was the finite piece. Since He is connected to an infinite God, (at one end) and an infinite Holy Spirit(at the other end) He becomes One with them. Phat writes:
Draw the line. You can only divide it at finite places. You can't have three infinite pieces when you only have two infinite ends. Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also? Phat writes:
Because three is a magic number. The only problem I would hypthetically have now is reasoning why there needs to be a GOD (The Father) and a Holy Spirit. Eleven disciples could have done the work of twelve - a couple of them were just tag-alongs anyway - but Jesus the Numerologist insisted on twelve. There could have been nine commandments. The first one is really just a preamble anyway. The week could be eight days long. God could have spent a whole day on humans if He wanted to emphasize that we are different from animals. But magic trumps mathematics in God-land.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
quote: The Pope somehow caused Constantine I to see him as the supreme decider over all of Christianity in the leadup to Nicaea. (However,after Nicaea, Constantine started to attempt to allow more Bishops to vote, though the situation was ESSENTIALLY one where Arius followers (on the one hand) and Roman Catholics (on the other) would overthrow and banish one respective bishop - from the other side - after another, and instating each's own side) Pope Militiades and Sylvester I made sure that Bishops that disagreed (however slightly) with Roman Catholicism were excluded. The See of Alexandria was a Roman Catholic puppet. Literally every last part of North Africa, except for (Roman Catholic stacked) Alexandria disagreed with Rome. I don't know where to begin. (I could try to selectively paste selective parts of roughly 2 dozen or so wikipedia links) I will avoid that and keep it short. Avoiding the intrigue of Alexandria itself, I will just cover a few things. (Constantine was involved in all of what I am to cover) The Melitians (in Egypt) had 29 bishops that were not allowed to vote at Nicaea. The Council of Nicaea did give the 29 bishops the right to be counted (in the future), but they were subject to severe restrictions from the will of the See Alexandria. Melitians were Arians. The Donatists were the majority in North Africa in the 4th century (or the plurality, outnumbering Roman Catholics). The historical clues from the Donatist controversy show us that the first ever Lateran Council (aka the 313 Council of Rome) saw the Roman Catholic Pope Miltiades appoint 20 Bishops (to take on the 70 from North Africa) overrule the majority. October 2-4 313 was the fraud that set the precedent for the Roman Catholic Empire. The 314 Council of Arles (which handled a North African matter in Europe) was full of stacked Bishops, and the 313 Lateran Council was upheld. Pope Sylvester just came to power after Pope Miltiades died. Constantine (ALL BY HIMSELF) himself decided the 317 appeal, and sided with (shock) the Pope of Rome against the North African people. Hundreds of Bishops, all over Africa were absent power of the vote. No wonder only 5 western Bishops (Egypt was "Eastern", but the rest of North Africa was Latin speak "West Roman") were allowed to vote at Nicaea. Even the (severely limited)Bishops that were allowed to vote in Nicaea actually preferred Arius' position, but were intimidated by Constantine. Here is a bit from BEFORE Nicaea. I will start with 1 of the 5 Western Bishops allowed to vote (notice that 70 representing all of Roman Mauritania, all of Roman Algeria, and parts of Roman Tunisia and Libya WERE EXCLUDED!)
quote: quote: 100 excluded Bishops in Nicaea. 70 west Roman. The 70 Bishops of Numidia & Tigisis, (then in East Rome over in Egypt) plus the 29 Melitians in Egypt, were just the tip of the iceberg. (now what I did not get to) Athanasius is the most obvious case of a papal puppet there could ever be. Now Athanasius did fall out of favor with Constantine once the Emperor noticed the North African Bishop had views that were representative of literally NOBODY but the Roman Catholic Pope (and his puppet Bishops).
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Knock this crap off! Your copypasta is not welcome in this topic! It is off topic and Faith is inactive here and you are answering a post from over a year ago. Knock it off.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Why don't you say something when he does this on other threads?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Good point. After reviewing a lot of what he writes, I conclude that he is not simply trolling us...he does bring up some considerations in a lengthy and cluttered way. I just dont have time to read all of that pasting. I wish that LNA would be more concise and provide us with links rather than full quotes all of the time.
You wanted simple evidence from him, but he does not have it...nor do any of us. If I dig through his pasta, I find some scholarly commentaries that suggest that the whole affair was not simply made up as a political move, but I dont have the time nor desire to study the lengthy pastings that LNA gives us. I guess I was just frustrated seeing all that dumped on a topic I recently opened up so that candle 2 could explain why the Trinity was not a valid Christian concept...which he has so far not done. Maybe I cant expect every poster to be as concise as I want. You likely feel the same way about many of us. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: I can live with Him being human while on earth. What any of us are after death nobody knows. I cannot accept that He never existed...and feel that the scholarly arguments are far from conclusive. It makes no sense to me why people would spin a story out of thin air for two thousand years if there were nothing to it. I feel that Jesus existed...as do you...and that there is an unseen Creator. The belief that this Creator is eternally living and seeks to become personal with we humans is plausible though not as simple as it is presented through the dogma. But can you live with Jesus being finite? You science types would more likely believe in a superior intelligence being another advanced species somewhere in the near distant universe. Perhaps this has merit. And candle 2 dismisses evolution as a fairytale, largely because someone else mentioned that idea first. Evolution makes sense, but I do not believe that God does NOT make sense...I think that that idea too is plausible. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Oh come on. There's a whole publishing industry and a whole movie industry based on spinning stories out of nothing.
It makes no sense to me why people would spin a story out of thin air for two thousand years if there were nothing to it. Phat writes:
No I don't. I don't know where you got that idea. I have said many times that the Jesus character is most likely an amalgamation of several itinerant preachers, much like Elmer Gantry.
I feel that Jesus existed...as do you... Phat writes:
And that there are unseen leprechauns....
...and that there is an unseen Creator. Phat writes:
Your thinking is inconsistent. The way you scoff at evidence, you might as well reject evolution too. Evolution makes sense, but I do not believe that God does NOT make sense...I think that that idea too is plausible.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: It makes no sense to me why people would spin a story out of thin air for two thousand years if there were nothing to it. Can you explain Mormonism to me then?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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