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Author | Topic: "The Flood" deposits as a sea transgressive/regressive sequence ("Walther's Law") | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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There are different portions or versions of the Stratigraphic Column in different locations, but there is still only one Stratigraphic Column, to which is attached the Geological Time Scale, illustrated thusly:
And by the way it goes up to the present time and it stops there with every indication that it is completed. It goes right up to today, and tomorrow it will go right up to then. We are in the Holocene, and material is still being added to the Holocene deposits, the Holocene era is not completed. And you are still confusing arbitrary age definitions with actual rocks. Can you identify for me which rock layers or rock formations are shown in your diagram? Curiously, seeing as we are talking about the Stratigraphic Column ... again ... you haven't yet answered my question -- where is your layer, one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that would be deposited by a magic flying carpet world trotting flood ... where is it Faith? What layer in this column represents a single rock layer or rock formation that covers the entire globe? I can show you where the iridium layer is -- it is at the T/K boundary at 65.5 million years ago, but it is not from a flood deposit it is from deposition world wide of ash and dust, including the iridium, that was exploded into the atmosphere from the meteor impact at the Yucatan peninsula. It is identifiable as such by the material in the layer wherever it is found, on top of different rock formations around the world and under different rock formations around the world. The layers above and below this layer are composed of different rock deposits in different places around the world. It was an extinction event. Your magic flying carpet world trotting flood is purported to be an extinction event, and it would have been recognized as such ... if it had actually occurred. So where is your layer, one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that would be deposited by a magic flying carpet world trotting flood ... where is it Faith? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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All that interests me is the stack of sediments, wherever they are found, however many of them are found in a given location, that either actually climb from the Cambrian to the Holocene or fit into that sequence, the stack of strata on which the Geological Time Scale is built. Where is your layer, one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that would be deposited by a magic flying carpet world trotting flood ... where is it Faith? You claim many were laid down one after the other by the flood. You should be able to find at least one. Until then, the explanation of the layers of sedimentary rock is best explained by time and by known geological mechanisms like Walther's Law -- which adequately explains the different rock formations in the Grand Canyon as has been pointed out previously in Message 74 Message 40: This is what I get (using your list) as a simple\simplistic application of the model to the Grand Canyon rocks:
[color=tan] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan]......[color=black] Kaibab/limestone [/color]......[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown]...[color=white] Toroweap/gypsum/shale [/color]....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[color=black] Coconino/sandstone [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].......[color=black] Hermit/shale [/color].........[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange]....[color=black] Esplanade/sandstone [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange]....[color=black] Wescogame/sandstone [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[color=black] Mankacha/limestone [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan]....[color=black] Watahomigi/limestone [/color]....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[color=black] Redwall/limestone [/color]......[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink]...[color=black] Temple Butte/limestone [/color]...[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].......[color=black] Muav/limestone [/color].......[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[color=white] Bright Angel/Shale [/color].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[color=black] Tapeats/Sandstone [/color]......[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=gray][color=black]Vishnu/Zoroaster/Unconformity [/color][/bgcolor][bgcolor=orange].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=brown].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=cyan].....[/bgcolor][bgcolor=pink].....[/bgcolor] [/color] Now you might get a slightly different arrangement depending on how you classify some of the layer rocks (sandy limestone for instance), but you should get the general idea: when the sand is being deposited for the sandstone layers there is also mud, carbonate and ooze being deposited somewhere else at the same time. This shows a pattern of marine transgression and regression a period of dry land deposition and then another marine transgression -- all according to Walther's Law. The different ages of the different formations explains the different in fossils and the difference in radioactive isotopes consistently found in the layers. But none of those layers extend around the world, heck none of them even cover North America. You have gone on and on about how your magic flying carpet world trotting flood laid down one layer after the other (while magically sorting the debris so that only certain fossils and certain radioactive isotopes are deposited in the layers) ... but you have yet to show one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that would be deposited by a magic flying carpet world trotting flood ... where is it Faith? Inquiring minds want to know. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't care whether Walther's Law can account for all the strata seen in the Grand Canyon and Grand Staircase, but I know the Flood accounts for all of it. So which layer of all those in the Grand Canyon that were -- according to you -- laid down one after the other as the flying magical world trotting flood danced around the world time and again ... which of all those layers shows up in a continuous layer all around the world? Which one ... (1) ... →ONE← ... layer is continuous all around the earth ... if we find it in the Grand Canyon, as you continually decree, where do we see it in Europe, in Asia, in Africa, in Australia ... everywhere the flying magic carpet world trotting flood went ... ???
WHERE IS IT, FAITH???? That is the only evidence that supports a world wide flying magic carpet world trotting flood, because ANY discontinuous layer can only support a specific area being underwater and accumulating sedimentary deposits at any one time. According to your model there should be several such layers. So show me one ... (1) ... →ONE← ... layer that is continuous all around the earth and shows up on every continent and in every stratigraphic column. One. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : just oneby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
and the Amazon
... what??? grain size decreasing with distance from mouth??? who woulda thunk that would happen. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
And a fine illustration of how this argument has proceeded. Someone just asserts, without even looking, but solely because, "it must be true", that the geological column is not being added to. It would appear that Faith is holding to her usual pattern of arguing repeatedly for her opinion, and when the evidence and arguments mount up she abandons the thread (usual personal persecution claims). We can expect the same arguments on the next flood thread together with claims that she refuted all the arguments presented here. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... For Walther's Law to be a factor the transgress into the landscape must be really, really slow, inches per year on average at most is my guess. It *has* to be very slow in order for there to be enough time to leave a significant deposit of sand or mud or limestone at a given location, because these types of the sediments are *produced* by precisely that type of environment, whether the environment be at the coast, or just offshore, or way offshore, or in mid-ocean. ... Well I had kind of figured that the last two had to occur over long time periods, because they are biological deposits. Here's the image again:
One question I had was what is the origin for the siliciclastic muds. When I looked this up on wikipedia I got:
quote: I was hoping to get some idea of the particle size. Note that it says "stream deposits (delta deposits)" so this imply fine particle size to be carried out to the distance range of these muds. Are these particles made by the further grinding and reduction of sands along the shore and in the streams? This would also imply long time as rocks → ground down to sands → ground down to siliciclastic muds. This also implies that there is not so much two different deposition environments, but that gravels, sands and siliciclastic muds form a continuum graded by size with distance from shore, whether along the shore (carried by shore currents?) or in a delta. Referring to Message 19 of my The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1) thread:
quote: My understanding is that "muds" would be mostly silt sized particles -- is this correct? For silt in wikipedia I get:
quote: Also note that dust particles are carried by winds out over the oceans and deposited at great distances ... if they are small enough. (Stoke's law in air instead of water). Overall this seems a lot like siliciclastic muds. Also seems it would take a long time to make significant amounts. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : added Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : moreby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
What is the source of your chart? Looking at the wiki article it looks like granpa is the source of the chart. Ties in with a previous proposed topic it seems. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... and that they occur further out from the coast than beach sand because they're smaller, lighter particles and will only fall out of suspension in quieter waters (i.e., no waves crashing through a surf onto a beach). After a point the only thing falling to the ocean floor is organic debris (diatom/foraminifera tests for example), airborne dust (from Africa/Sahara for example), and Cosmic Dust:
quote: If these particles can be identified in sedimentary layers, then it becomes increasingly difficult for any creationist to argue that the layers were all laid down in ~400 days by the magical mystery tour globe trotting flying magical carpet flood. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The term siliciclastic is a compound term meaning it is of silicate composition (including clay minerals, quartz grains, feldspar grains, mica grains ... anything with silica in it) broken down from a previously existing rock. Most sandstone beaches are eroded from siliceous rocks carried to the sea and abraded by rivers and wind, and sometimes eroded directly by wave action. ... So would I be correct in assuming that the division between "sands" and "siliciclastic muds" is more due to the definitions of "sand" and "silt" than any major difference in other characteristics?
I was also looking into the coccolith/foram ooze (and where I got into the cosmic dust component in Message 211):
quote: Would I be correct in aligning "Carbonate sediments" with Calcereous ooze and "coccolith/foram ooze" with Siliceous ooze? So the boundary between them is defined by the carbonate compensation depth (which Dr A described in his awesome Introduction To Geology thread)? This would mean that the boundary between sands and siliciclastic muds is mostly a matter of particle size definition, but the boundary between them and the pelagic oozes is based on biological/organic traces (of 30% or more) in the later, with the pelagic oozes further subdivided into carbonate and non-carbonate deposits, yes? Thanks Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So applying Walther's Law to delta formations,
This would mean that the boundary between sands and siliciclastic muds is mostly a matter of particle size definition, but the boundary between them and the pelagic oozes is based on biological/organic traces (of 30% or more) in the later, with the pelagic oozes further subdivided into carbonate and non-carbonate deposits, yes? I would expect the sediment load from rivers to deltas to consist of mostly sands and siliciclastic mud, graded by distance from the river mouth to the widening plane of the delta as the river velocity dropped. I would not expect pelagic oozes in the delta formations. These deposit would progressively cover earlier delta formation deposits, and at their furthest deposition distance they would overlay the previous existing ocean floor -- coastal sediments along the coast and the pelagic oozes as the delta encroaches on the ocean/seas. And I recollect a discussion (of Grand Canyon deposits?) of deltas forming these layers at the angle of (underwater) repose for the materials. This is cross-bedding, yes? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
why does that picture make me think of a penguin
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I think someone mentioned the Amazon delta. The curious thing is that it is so small... Isn't the Amazon very wide and flat for miles inland? Wouldn't that be the same deposition environment as a delta so only the finest smallest lightest material makes it to the mouth? Also I think there is a north flowing coastal current that could easily carry the material material away from the mouth. Just wondering Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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