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Author | Topic: Texas Small Town Church Terrorism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
frako Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Blame the supreme court and the NRA, read your second amendment Americans.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Start applying the first part again. Especially the WELL REGULATED PART. United States v. Cruikshank (1876)
The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and limited the scope of the Second Amendment's protections to the federal government. United States v. Miller (1939)
the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment did not protect weapon types not having a "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia. The idea that the second amendment protects an individuals right to bare arms is NEW!!! Edited by frako, : No reason given.Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Phat asks:
Or was Pogo right? I vote Pogo!!!- xongsmith, 5.7d
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Regardless of what "human nature" is, a human with a gun is more dangerous than a human without a gun.
Shall we blame guns, or human nature?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Regardless of what "human nature" is, a human with a gun is more dangerous than a human without a gun. And yet if we enact laws to outlaw gun ownership, the critic's standard reply is that the outlaws (or dictatorships or organized criminals) will still have guns and that the average citizen has no weapon against them. Just in the recent shooting in Texas, only a quick-acting neighbor with a gun was able to stop the killer from causing more collateral damage. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The idea that the second amendment protects an individuals right to bare arms is NEW!!! No it isn't. The idea goes back to the English Bill of Rights of 1689: "Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law". The militia stuff comes from the Virginia Declaration of Rights of 1776: "Section 13. That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."
The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; The individual rights in the Bill of Rights are not granted to the individuals by the Bill - the Bill identifies rights that exist and that won't be taken away. The 1st amendment doesn't grant us free speech. We have free speech. The 1st prevents the government from taking that away from us. Look at the 4th: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated," That's not granting us that right, we have that right. It simply says that it won't be violated. That's where the second part of US v Miller comes in: "neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence". The rights do not depend on the Bill of Rights for their existence. And here's the next line: "The Second Amendment means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government." So it doesn't grant us the right because we have it by default. It just prevents the government from taking that right away. Make sense?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
My standard reply to that is it would make the outlaws easy to spot. the critic's standard reply is that the outlaws (or dictatorships or organized criminals) will still have guns Edited by ringo, : Inserted word "is".
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In the case of a dictatorship or martial law, a lot of good that would do. The nazis were easily spotted carrying guns, but the population was powerless to fight them.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a bogus argument. The nazis were easily spotted carrying guns, but the population was powerless to fight them. First, the Nazis were voted in. The populace had no desire to fight them. They didn't even need guns to control the populace. The guns were for oppressing foreigners. Second, a bunch of armed civilian yahoos has no chance against a well-trained and disciplined modern army.
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frako Member (Idle past 334 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined:
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Second, a bunch of armed civilian yahoos has no chance against a well-trained and disciplined modern army Yea but, they all believe that one day a situation will happen when they will be called to use their gun, and like steven segal they wil reach for their holster and double tap every bad guy in sight, and every woman in a hundred mile radius will be wet from their awesome heroics. Thas why they need a gun. reality has nothing to do with it else the whole world would ban all guns and weapons. Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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frako writes:
I know what they believe. They're idiots - yet another reason why they shouldn't have guns.
Yea but, they all believe that one day a situation will happen when they will be called to use their gun....
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You may be right, but I am against the state having that much control over my buying habits. The state should not meddle in peoples freedoms and rights.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Arguably, the purpose of the state is to protect the group from its individuals.
The state should not meddle in peoples freedoms and rights.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Arguably, the purpose of the state is to protect the group from its individuals.
Yet in our current system, what we have is legislation protecting some groups of individuals from other groups of individuals and a political tug-of-war as to which group is in power.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You have legislation protecting the right of shooters to shoot. That's a bit one-sided.
Yet in our current system, what we have is legislation protecting some groups of individuals from other groups of individuals and a political tug-of-war as to which group is in power.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
My standard reply to that is it would make the outlaws easy to spot. The guy who shot up the church should have been denied guns already because of his mental condition. He was already easy enough to spot. I'm not sure about the Vegas shooter but i'd be all for any measures that would have identified his dangerous tendencies. What we don't want to do is restrict reasonable gun possession from responsible people, but be able to keep them out of the hands of the dangerous ones.
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