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Author | Topic: Gun Control III | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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'There are really no words': 17 dead in Florida high school shooting; former student in custody
There really are no words. Weapon was an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. We have to make guns like this and the Bushmaster and so forth unavailable to the public. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
frako writes: I get it americans love guns, because propaganda tells you you should,... And apparently the propaganda isn't just from the NRA and gun-nuts. The Russians see the gun issue as yet another avenue for sowing discord here. This is from CNN: Russian bots promote pro-gun messages after Florida school shooting --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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NoNukes writes: Florida teen shooting survivors announce 'March for Our Lives' demonstration in Washington - ABC News
quote: The same kids appeared on all three weekly news shows, This Week, Meet the Press, and Face the Nation. The girl in the upper right (the kids kept the same seats on all the shows), Emma Gonzalez, also spoke at the rally (everyone: you want to watch this one - Emma is an inspiring speaker):
If the students can pull this off, I am going to try my best to participate. Me too. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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From Slate Magazine: More Americans Blame Mass Shootings on Mental Health Than on Gun Laws, New Poll Finds
It will always be the extremely rare case that mental health professionals are able to pre-identify mass murderers. Here's a list of mass murderers in the U.S. from Mass Shooting Perpetrators, find me one who could have been pre-identified:
Edward Charles Allaway, James Edward Pough, Carl Robert Brown, Omar Mateen, Robert A. Hawkins, James Oliver Huberty, Nathan Dunlap, George Hennard, Dylann Roof, Adam Lanza, Nidal Malik Hasan, Charles Whitman, Jeff Weise, Gang Lu, Patrick Sherrill, Barry Loukaitis, Esteban Santiago, Christopher Harper-Mercer, Gian Luigi Ferri, Mark Essex, Scott Evans Dekraai, Steven Kazmierczak, Jennifer San Marco, James Eagan Holmes, Michael McLendon, Jared Lee Loughner, Seung-Hui Cho, Elliot Rodger, Charles Carl Roberts IV, Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, Robert Lewis Dear, Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden, Aaron Alexis, Wade Michael Page, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Patrick Edward Purdy, Gavin Eugene Long, Micah Xavier Johnson, Kyle Aaron Huff, One L. Goh, Stephen Paddock, and Devin Patrick Kelley As the article says:
quote: Missing from the list is the most recent mass murderer, Nicholas Cruz, and it is an interesting question whether local law enforcement would have confiscated his gun had the FBI notified them (FBI field offices don't deal with such issues directly, they merely pass on information to local law enforcement). I very much doubt the gun would have been confiscated. As the family with whom Cruz was staying said, he presented as respectful, quiet and obedient, though sad about his mother's death. Americans belief in the predictive power of psychology is seriously misplaced, as any psychologist will tell you. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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In her New York Times Opinion piece, The Mental Health System Can’t Stop Mass Shooters psychiatrist Amy Barnhorst describes the difficulties faced by mental health professionals trying to stop mass murderers. Here she describes a man she evaluated:
quote: In these excerpts she describes the difficulties more generally:
quote: Bottom line: Republican claims about beefing up the mental health care system is a smokescreen for doing nothing about guns. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
NoNukes writes: Among those pushing this "theory" is Former Congress Jack Kingston from Georgia who believes that Soros has riled up these kids. In an interview with CNN, Kingston expresses skepticism that 17 and 18-year-old teens are capable of chartering a bus to a scheduled meeting or that their peers in other states are capable of showing solidarity and scheduling protests of their own. Just to cast further ridicule on this, at age 14 me and a friend were already taking the train from New Jersey into New York City to buy firecrackers for resale. By age 16 I was taking buses with the chess club to tournaments in New York City, Atlantic City, Philadelphia and Baltimore where we found our own hotel arrangements and somehow managed to even eat. By age 17 I was driving all over, including as far south as Virginia. And by normal teenage standards I was by no means adventurous. Wherever does Mr. Kingston come by such colossal naivet? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: We who think gun control is not the right response to these shootings naturally have a question why that is the solution proposed by the students. Could be leftist interference, no reason why that's not a possibility. We who think gun control is the right response to mass shootings (especially for what are in reality weapons of war) naturally question why that solution is not obvious to everyone. Could be rightist brainwashing, no reason why that's not a possibility. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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The attacks on the Douglas High students are reprehensible. From the Washington Post editorial page: The right-wing sliming of Douglas High students can’t be ignored. It’s too disgusting for that. Short excerpts:
quote: --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: I think it's reprehensible that gun control becomes this huge leftist cause every time there is a shooting like this, using an emotional situation to push their politics and drown out the other side. I think it's disgraceful that each mass shooting is followed by repugnant rightist objections, slanders, conspiracy theories and lies, especially of students who have just witnessed the slaughter of classmates.
I'm actually for more gun control but this is the wrong way to get it,... There is no right way to convince rightist gun wingnuts that we need gun control.
...and when you have teenagers supporting the standard leftwing position I don't trust it anyway. And when you have rightist nutcases like Donald Jr. liking slanders of traumatized students expressing their opinions and feelings the right has lost all moral authority. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: I want some gun control but I may have to take it back about wanting as much as Israel has. I'm taking back my "Cheer" of that post.
I'd probably want more strictness about the qualifications for individuals, not just a blanket banning of guns for particular individuals. We must begin by addressing the most extreme case, mass murder, even though it represents only a small proportion of all murders. That means eliminating the right of Americans to own weapons of war. Next we must address the gun problem. Owning a gun increases the likelihood that you or your family or friends will be shot or murdered. Gun nuts only advance invented reasons for keeping their guns, such as self defense. If they were truthful they'd just say, "I like guns, don't take my fun away." It wouldn't be a good reason, but it would at least be honest. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: If leftists didn't always immediately try to build their case for gun control after such a shooting, trying to pre-empt other points of view, there wouldn't be this predictable exchange of insults every time. "Now is not the right time" has become a blatant rightest tactic to avoid talking about gun control.
Make the case in a neutral time rather than trying to manipulate public opinion at the most emotional possible time. This is just BS. It has become deadly obvious that this is just a discussion avoidance strategy.
And calling us wingnuts doesn't help. If the word fits... Being polite to gun nuts who never return the favor but just take advantage has never proven an effective strategy. Prove I'm wrong by condemning those slandering the Parkland students. Oh, wait, you can't do that because you're slandering them yourself. Gun nuts who support the NRA, and of course the NRA itself, are complicit in murder, and politicians who accept their money must own the blood on their hands.
I'm for more gun control... Like what? Likely you're for any ineffective gun control measure. I bet you're in favor of more mental health efforts and against taking away assault weapons.
...but I'm also a defender of the second amendment... Why? It is responsible for the US having more gun-related deaths per capita by far than any other nation in the civilized world.
...and I think having a FEW more armed people at schools and other vulnerable institutions is a reasonable solution. Yes, your wingnuttiness, more guns in schools is the reasonable solution. Let's have shootouts in schools while also increasing the likelihood of gun accidents. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: Actually, what Israel does is make sure the most vulnerable places are protected by allowing more armed people there. Are you supporting the Israel solution again?
That's the same kind of solution as arming teachers in schools, where the shootings always happen. No, the shootings don't always happen in schools. They happen all over (more on that later), and boy you've got a short memory. The Las Vegas concert shooting where 56 were killed and 851 injured was just a few months ago. By "arming teachers in schools" do you include all the requirements and training as in Israel? What if teachers want to teach instead of being turned into armed guards? Who's going to pay for the training and the guns? Who's liable if an armed teacher makes a mistake and shoots the wrong person or mistakes a contraption from metal shop for a gun? Wouldn't it be much easier to just get rid of all weapons that make it very easy to fill the air with high velocity lead? Here's an actual hunting rifle, it fires three shots before reloading:
Here's an AR15 assault weapon. It fire 30 shots as quickly as you can pull the trigger before reloading (made easy by the plug-in magazine), and it can be fitted with a bump stock to turn it into a machine gun. There is no legitimate reason for a civilian to be in possession of such a gun:
Hunting rifles? Fine. Assault rifles? No. Hand guns for self defense? These cause the vast majority of gun deaths in the U.S., so no.
I don't care who is armed, just some people who are charged with protecting the children, and it shouldn't take more than a few. Same wherever there is such a danger. Since a gun is portable, where isn't there danger? The list of places where mass shootings have occurred includes schools, colleges, night clubs, concerts, churches, McDonalds, army bases, navy yards, movie theaters, places of business, Indian reservations, immigration centers, post offices, restaurants, and so forth. The question with a much shorter answer would be, "Where hasn't there been a mass shooting?" Phone booths? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: We have a problem with crazed shooters these days. There is no evidence of diminished mental health in the U.S. versus other western countries. We have a problem with guns.
One could spend some time trying to figure out why,... The only people who need to "spend some time trying to figure out why" are those trying to avoid an answer. The obvious answer to "why" is guns.
...possibly to good purpose,... "Possibly to good purpose"? Getting rid of the guns is obviously to a "good purpose," since with no guns there could be no gun deaths. Prior to the invention of the gun there were no gun deaths.
...but the point is we have a particular problem that needs addressing,... Yes, we do have "a particular problem that needs addressing," and that problem is too many guns.
...and taking more guns away from the good guys strikes some of us as the least sane solution. Taking away the guns is the most sane solution, and it is a proven solution as demonstrated by the rest of the civilized world.
The problem is not guns, it's crazed shooters. The problem is crazy people in denial of the simple fact that more guns mean more gun deaths, and that the more lethal the gun the more gun deaths.
If you want to argue for better restrictions that really would keep guns out of the hands of the crazed ones great,... Psychologists and psychiatrists will tell you there is no way to pre-identify who is going to murder.
I'm all for it, but we all know that isn't really possible. Yes, precisely, pre-identifying who will murder "isn't really possible," so why did you mention it?
I'm also for better gun control in general,... You keep saying this, but everything else you say contradicts it.
...but I think it's really slimy of the leftists who always jump on the crazed shooter cases to try to take guns away from everybody else. I think Taq is right that you should stop turning this into a left versus right issue. This is a case of those who are sincere about solving the gun murder problem versus those who are not, and simply because they like guns.
I have no idea how to deal with a situation like the Vegas shooter. I know how to keep mass murders like the one in Las Vegas from happening. No assault rifles. No bump stocks. No high capacity magazines. No bullets that cause massive damage.
Possibly if there had been someone in the crowd or nearby who had a rifle handy he might have been stopped before he did his worst. Seriously?
I don't know. That's for sure.
But making sure crowds anywhere are unarmed in this day and age is NOT the sane solution. Making sure everyone is unarmed is the sane solution, and the sooner we start the better. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: Always characterizing your opponents in such extreme terms doesn't help the discussion. In other words you have no answer to Ringo's post showing the absurdity of your position.
I for one have never advocated arming all people or even most people. But that's the logical endpoint of your argument. Teachers committing murder or making mistakes will require the arming of ever more teachers to take out those teachers, and on and on. Get off the crazy bus.
All it should take is a few, and preventing those few from being in a position to help by, say, gun free zones, doesn't help the situation. Making as much of the country as possible into a gun-free zone is the answer.
Making a big deal about how to tell who the good guys are is also a red herring. Making untenable arguments like this is the actual red herring. When everyone has a gun, telling good guys from bad guys is the biggest problem. You're in favor of creating more situations where good guys get hurt.
It certainly IS about "this day and age." We have a NEW unusual problem in this country, and it's the reason for all this talk about gun control NOW. Other countries don't have our particular problems and the comparison is unfair. The only thing different about the U.S. is the increasingly easy availability of guns and bullets of very high lethality.
From what caffeine said, it seems Israel allows more armed people in areas where there is more known danger. You stated you were backing away from your support of the Israel approach.
Sounds extremely reasonable to me, but our situation of lone crazed shooters doesn't need more than a very few armed people, and the solution of taking away guns from the most vulnerable areas hits me as crazier than crazy. Name a place that isn't vulnerable to an attack by a lone gunman with an assault rifle?
And again, stop arguing this when there's been a shooting, it makes a wacko emotional issue out of something that needs the most careful reasonable thought. If you don't think this is the time to argue this then why don't you do as you say? The fact of the matter is that after a mass shooting is only a bad time to talk about it for those who are permanently unwilling to offer any meaningful answers. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: I didn't mean to imply some formal "mental illness" by the word "crazed." Really? Then what did you mean? You argued that we should "keep guns out of the hands of the crazed ones" (Message 69), so what is this quality of the "crazed ones" that would allow us to recognize them and keep them from getting guns?
I don't claim more armed people would always work, just that there's some chance of it helping when a totally disarmed target audience just makes for sitting ducks. Yeah, like all those sitting duck audiences in Europe, Australia and other western style countries that get slaughtered in mass shooting after mass shooting. Oh, wait a minute, those countries don't have mass shootings, because they haven't got many guns. Gee, I guess you've made another false argument. --Percy
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