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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 1441 of 2887 (830530)
04-02-2018 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1440 by Faith
04-02-2018 9:17 AM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
If you are getting different ages from different methods for the same rock you've got a problem.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends in why you get different ages. If the investigator is a YEC, it's nearly certain without further investigation that the different results are the result of fraud or misrepresentation. Details on request.
All measurements have a margin of error, and there are things that can affect radiometric dates. However, as has certainly been mentioned before there are multiple methods and the chance that any of them - let alone all of them - is so bad as to make the young Earth a real possibility is negligible.
The amount of disagreement among them suggests the whole system is so unreliable anything is possible.
Sorry, the amount of disagrement between methods is minuscule. Tens of thousands of measurements, maybe hundreds of thousands. How many unexplained disagreements was that again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1440 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 9:17 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 197 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 1442 of 2887 (830531)
04-02-2018 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1441 by JonF
04-02-2018 10:21 AM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
Free sample, my personal favorite creationist fraud.
Andrew Snelling wrote two articles on it, one for the sheeple and one "technical". In the latter, but not the former he gave away the gaff, and all you need to know is that "whole rock" means the entire rock, not any individual mineral from the rock, and "xenolith", literally foreign rock, means a piece of an older rock that didn't melt embedded in a younger rock.
ANDESITE FLOWS AT MT NGAURUHOE, NEW ZEALAND, AND THE IMPLICATIONS FOR POTASSIUM-ARGON "DATING":
quote:
A second representative set (50-100 g from each sample) was sent progressively to Geochron Laboratories in Cambridge (Boston), Massachusetts, for whole-rock potassium-argon (K-Ar) dating
...
The potassium and argon analyses were undertaken at Geochron Laboratories under the direction of Richard Reesman, the K-Ar laboratory manager. No specific location or expected age information was supplied to the laboratory. However, the samples were described as andesites that probably contained "low argon" and therefore could be young, so as to ensure the laboratory took extra care with the analytical work.
Because the sample pieces were submitted as whole rocks, the K-Ar laboratory undertook the crushing and pulverising preparatory work.
...
Steiner [90] stressed that xenoliths are a common constituent of the 1954 Ngauruhoe lava, but also noted that Battey [7] reported the 1949 Ngauruhoe lava was rich in xenoliths. All samples in this study contained xenoliths, including those from the 1975 avalanche material.
...
Xenoliths are present in the Ngauruhoe andesite flows (Table 3), but they are minor and less significant as the location of the excess 40Ar* residing in these flows than the plagioclase and pyroxene phenocrysts, and the much larger glomerocrysts of plagioclase, pyroxene, or plagioclase and pyroxene that predominate. The latter are probably the early-formed phenocrysts that accumulated together in the magma within its chamber prior to eruption of the lava flows. Nevertheless, any excess 40Ar* they might contain had to have been supplied to the magma from its source. The xenoliths that are in the andesite flows have been described by Steiner [90] as gneissic, and are therefore of crustal origin, presumably from the basement rocks through which the magma passed on its way to eruption.
TL : DR version:
Snelling dated a mixture of old and new material and expressed amazement that the date came out as older than the new material. Duh. He presented no data for his claim that the xenoliths were not important.
{Also he could have used the much more robust Ar-Ar method, and/or extracted samples of the new material if possible and likely gotten a valid result)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1441 by JonF, posted 04-02-2018 10:21 AM JonF has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1443 of 2887 (830532)
04-02-2018 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1438 by Faith
04-02-2018 7:48 AM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
Looks quite likely to me from what I've seen of the flume experiments. And great aeons of time certainly couldn't do that, not these extremely flat tight layers, no, which is what I keep arguing and so do they.
Flume results are not extensive. Nor do they express the range of compositions and particle sized of actual rock formations.
n what sense? In the sense of very flat tight layers that's exatly what the debris from Mt. St. Helens looks like. Which is shown at the beginning of this film by the way.
Here's an image of the layering rapidly laid down by Mt. St. Helens:
Where are the limestones?
The lower and upper layers are unsorted as I would expect. The middle layers look more like ash flow(s). Not exactly a major rock formation.
And perhaps I misspoke. While some types of deposition are rapid, the kind of sediment loads implied by your flood cannot create widespread, sorted, tabular deposits. The velocities and turbulence necessary to keep them in suspension while traveling across the continent would not permit it.
The MSH deposits are not widespread. They are not sorted into pure layers on a continental scale.
But of course we are talking about depositions on the continents, not under the sea. Besides which, the abyssal plains are not flat and straight and tightly layered as is the geological column. There is no comparison. Here, see THIS GOOGLE IMAGE PAGE of cross sections showing the abyssal plain. Straight, flat, tight contacts? Hardly. Who do you think you're kidding?
First of all you said 'anywhere in the world'. AFAICT, the abyssal plains are part of the world and they are receiving sediments.
Why do you think they are called 'plains'? By the way, you due understand the concept of vertical exaggeration don't you?
And we haven't even started on Walther's Law and marine transgressions, so actually, deposition of the type you call 'strata' IS going on.
The measurements were done by a creationist team at a great many locations and the angle was found to be less than that for Aeolian deposits, consistent with formation in water. THIS TABLE agrees with what they said in the film: water-filled sand has a lower angle -- 15 to 30 degrees -- than dry sand -- 34 degrees -- or simply wet sand -- 45 degrees.
Then you don't understand what I wrote. 34 degrees is the maximum slope of the eolian sand. It can be less and easily overlap with the water saturated sands.
As I mentioned, sand dunes in particular can show a range of cross-bedding dips. Depending on where you measure them, they can be significantly less than 34 degrees.
And yes, the measurements were taken by creationist teams.
You have?
Yes. For instance, radiocarbon does not date events occurring in deep time such as the formation of the earth. Different methods date different events. In fact, IIRC, Ar-Ar methods are capable of measuring different events in one rock.
If you are getting different ages from different methods for the same rock you've got a problem.
This could be true but not necessarily. Different minerals have different closing temperatures and therefor may provide slightly different dates. What we actually measure is when the closing temperature for for a given mineral or set of minerals was reached.
There are plenty of other reasons too, such as contamination by older rock components. And this is why I always say, that we should not allow YECs to do radiometric dates without adult supervision.
It's also interesting, I think, that they consistently talk in terms of two different paradigms, which I also do, and I don't think I've encountered this way of laying it out to such an extent before in creationist contexts, but it is a good way to organize the material: the evidence is the same, what differs is the paradigm or interpretive framework.
Not really. You have ignored certain forms of evidence such as radiometric dates which display a pattern of occurrence. You have also ignored geological processes and their cross-cutting kinematics - relative ages. You have largely depended on the the rocks of the Colorado Plateau which do not record a lot of the evidence of mountain building and magmatism that we see elsewhere in the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1438 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 7:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 1444 of 2887 (830533)
04-02-2018 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1440 by Faith
04-02-2018 9:17 AM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
quote:
They are consistently in the water-filled range, so that even if they overlap the dry range here and there it is definitely evidence they were formed in water.
By here and there you mean everywhere. Do you have trouble understanding the concept of a maximum ?
quote:
The amount of disagreement among them suggests the whole system is so unreliable anything is possible.
I look, forward to you making a case to that effect. Until you do it can be dismissed as another of your fantasies.
quote:
Nobody is "spouting falsehoods." It is possible to believe something that is a deception because it is false though you believe sincerely that it is true.
You are spouting falsehoods for a start. And they remain false whether you believe them or not. And let us remember that the accusations of deception started with you,
quote:
But if that is all he meant he's being disingenuous, since the whole point is that sedimentation ON THE ORDER OF THE STRATA OF THE GEO COLUMN is not happening today.
Since Edge was quite clear I don’t think he can reasonably be accused of being disingenuous.
Anyway, as has been pointed out to you many strata have far more limited extent. Also I will point out that the Sahara is not only large, it is growing. The idea that there couldn’t be a desert that big is one that requires more argument.
quote:
The whole idea of fossil order is a piece of imaginative deception.
So you say. You have yet to offer any evidence. At all. And yet you make the accusation of deception.
quote:
There is no actual order, all those creatures existed at the same time and died at the same time.
The actual observed order is the order of the strata in which the fossils are found, both in simple cases where the strata lie directly atop each other, or in cases where the ordering is derived from geometric relationships. Remember the order was discovered by very early geologists simply surveying the rocks - the basic data on which the science of geology was founded. It doesn’t require any ideas of when the creatures existed or died.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1440 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 9:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1447 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 3:46 PM PaulK has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1735 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1445 of 2887 (830534)
04-02-2018 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1440 by Faith
04-02-2018 9:17 AM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
But if that is all he meant he's being disingenuous, since the whole point is that sedimentation ON THE ORDER OF THE STRATA OF THE GEO COLUMN is not happening today.
But actually, it is. Just very slowly.
But of course the is a difference between pelagic sediments and continental sediments as the former will probably not be preserved in their original geometry since they are moving toward a subduction event in the geological future.
The point is that sedimentation is taking place on the same scale as your 'strata'.
And, as I mentioned earlier, we haven't even touched on Walther's Law which explains how thick and extensive strata form in the continental areas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1440 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 9:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1446 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 3:45 PM edge has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1446 of 2887 (830543)
04-02-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1445 by edge
04-02-2018 11:26 AM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
The point is that sedimentation is taking place on the same scale as your 'strata'.
The point of the comment about the extent of the Coconino sandstone was that sedimentation ON LAND, like the Coconino, is not occurring on that same scale, which is an argument against the OE theory. That is not the geologic column on the seafloor. Presumably according to OE theory the geo column formed slowly on land over millions of years, and the model for it is supposed to be today's sedimentation. Doesn't work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1445 by edge, posted 04-02-2018 11:26 AM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1447 of 2887 (830544)
04-02-2018 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1444 by PaulK
04-02-2018 11:22 AM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
The idea that the Sahara will ever by a layer in the geo column is too absurd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1444 by PaulK, posted 04-02-2018 11:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1448 by PaulK, posted 04-02-2018 3:57 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1471 by Percy, posted 04-04-2018 8:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 1448 of 2887 (830546)
04-02-2018 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1447 by Faith
04-02-2018 3:46 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
quote:
The idea that the Sahara will ever by a layer in the geo column is too absurd.
So you only attempt to answer one of my points, and you haven’t even got a worthwhile answer to that.
Which proves that you are spouting falsehoods and falsely accusing others of deception.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1447 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 3:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1449 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 4:37 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1449 of 2887 (830547)
04-02-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1448 by PaulK
04-02-2018 3:57 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
I'm accusing Old Earth Theory of deception. I don't think people who believe in it are trying to deceive, they are deceived themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1448 by PaulK, posted 04-02-2018 3:57 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1450 by PaulK, posted 04-02-2018 4:47 PM Faith has not replied
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 Message 1472 by Percy, posted 04-04-2018 9:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 1450 of 2887 (830548)
04-02-2018 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1449 by Faith
04-02-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
quote:
I'm accusing Old Earth Theory of deception. I don't think people who believe in it are trying to deceive, they are deceived themselves.
And yet you can’t back up your assertions about the order in the fossil record - to point out the most glaring example.
You say:
The whole idea of fossil order is a piece of imaginative deception. There is no actual order, all those creatures existed at the same time and died at the same time.
But you can’t back up the assertion that it is a piece of imaginative deception. You just made that up because you can’t explain it. Now if there is an obvious example of someone lying to themselves that is it. (Unless, of course, it is just plain lying. It’s hard to tell the difference)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1449 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 4:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 1451 of 2887 (830552)
04-02-2018 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1449 by Faith
04-02-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
I'm accusing Old Earth Theory of deception. I don't think people who believe in it are trying to deceive, they are deceived themselves.
You CAN'T allow yourself to accept the various dating methods because they conclusively prove your YEC ideas are wrong.
But again, we have the well-ordered fossils and the dates, as RAZD has shown, so we have the evidence. You have only belief and denial.
Makes it really ironic that you accuse us of self-deception...

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1449 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 4:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2135 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1452 of 2887 (830557)
04-03-2018 12:29 AM


Twenty-One Reasons Noah’s Worldwide Flood Never Happened
LORENCE G. COLLINS
Introduction: Young-Earth creationists claim that the Paleozoic sedimentary rocks in the Grand Canyon and the Mesozoic sedimentary rocks of the Grand Staircase north of the canyon, in which Zion and Bryce Canyon National Parks occur, were deposited during Noah’s worldwide flood about 4,500 years ago (Hill 2002; Hill and Moshier 2009). I realize that readers of Skeptical Inquirer accept modern scientific views on this subject, but this examination of the creationist claims might be useful when communicating with others less imbued with scientific thinking.
More
http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr38Reasons.pdf

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1453 of 2887 (830558)
04-03-2018 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1436 by Faith
04-01-2018 8:45 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
For those who would want to watch the film in order to respond in detail, it is currently available on Netflix. I added it to my list, but my school homework and project take priority at present.
I looked through reviews of it on Netflix. Predictably, it was largely either praised by YECs or panned by skeptics. Some skeptics gave it high marks for presenting the creationist position (even though they don't agree with it) and a number of Christians objected to it for presenting YEC as the only alternative to the standard scientific view. It smells like a standard piece of creationist propaganda -- one reviewer said that he grew up under Communism and this film is exactly like the propaganda films that they had to watch, the only difference being that at least they all knew that those films were lies, whereas the creationists don't.
There's a Wikipedia entry for the movie at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is_Genesis_History%3F. My digging before that find revealed that Dr. Del Tackett, DM (Doctor of Management?), had produced The Truth Project for Dobson's Focus on the Family, an educational series instructing you how to be a biblical Christian -- it's inspiration was a Barna Group poll which found that only 8% of Christians were living biblically. Since The Truth Project was created solely for the indoctrination of people who were already Christians and not for proselytizing purposes, I was cool with that. However, if this movie was also created by the ironically-named "Truth Project", then its distribution on Netflix would certainly appear to be a foray into proselytizing.
According to Wikipedia, there is no connection with The Truth Project except for the person of Del Tackett, who is only the narrator.
I see that Dr. Steve Austin, PhD Geology, is in it. I remember him from back when he was Stuart Nevins writing geology articles for the Creation Research Society Quarterly. You see, he was being paid by a creationist organization, the ICR as I recall though it could have been the CRS, to earn an actual PhD in geology from an actual accredited university (Pennsylvania State University, 1979, according to a creationist site). The problem for creationists at the time that they needed to solve was that they had virtually nobody with an actual doctorate in the hard sciences that they were making claims about -- add to that the huge problem that many creationists claiming advanced degrees had gotten them from diploma mills (eg, Kent Hovind, though his bogus degrees weren't even in any kind of science but he insisted on parading them about even to the point of insisting that he be listed as "Dr Hovind" in the phone book) or else they were honorary degrees (eg, Harold Slusher with an honorary doctorate while the only actual highest degree he had earned was a Masters of Science -- he has been teaching at the University of Texas at El Paso, where he was first listed as "Dr. Slusher", but that has since been corrected).
So the creationists desperately needed an actual PhD Geology, so they hired one by putting Steve Austin through school. While he was working on his degree, he wrote several creationist geology articles, such as the ones that I encountered in the Creation Research Society Quarterly. During that time, he used a pseudonym, Stuart Nevins, a rough anagram of his real name (an e and t of his real name are not used, plus there is no source for the r in Stuart), for the purpose of hiding his identity so that what he was writing could not leak back to his professors. Which was a necessary move, because in those articles he, as a graduate student, was writing nonsense that even lower-division geology students (ie, the freshman and sophomore levels, the very first two years of university) would know was utterly false.
It's been three decades, but one example I remember was that he pointed to a formation of strata over a hundred feet thick that were supposed to have formed over so many millions of years. Therefore, he concluded in the article (even though he had to have known better), geologists were claiming that that formation had to have formed at an absolutely uniform rate of a very small fraction of an inch every single year. Complete and utter nonsense and something that any geology student with one or two semesters of geology under her belt would instantly know not to say. Steve Austin knew better. You cannot complete a doctorate program and be a complete clueless idiot -- Clifford Stoll's oral exam for his doctorate alone is evidence of that. In writing those articles, Steve Austin knew that what he was writing was false, yet he wrote it anyway, in article after article. That makes him a deliberate liar.
OK, so he was like a local newsperson in a Sinclair-owned station having to read that "fake news" denouncement announcement written by a Russian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PlTDeTrELk). He "had to write all that nonsense in order to please his masters". Bullshit! He was a willing participant.
So then, in the film does Dr. Steve Austin (he earned it, so he can fly it; Mr. Kent Hovind is an entirely different matter altogether) bring up the ICR's Grand Canyon Dating Project? I cannot imagine that he wouldn't have. It turns out that he was deceiving you in that. But a little background first.
Just about every dating method (or any method for anything at all for that matter) is based on certain assumptions which are based on certain conditions. In comparison, the real world can be very messy and things can happen which can throw off some of those assumptions and hence yield false dates. Knowing that, scientists have taken the approach of discovering the situations which can throw off their dating methods and compensating for them -- that is opposed to the standard creationist approach of just throwing their hands in the air and proclaiming "goddidit". As a result, scientists have accumulated quite a library of things and situations that could throw a particular dating method off and produce a false date. Just where exactly do you think that creationists have gotten their "false ages" from? Did they do their own original research? HELL NO! They just researched through standard geological research and misrepresented what they found. Duh?
Although most of my work with "creation science" dates back to 1981, my very first exposure to it was around 1970 when I was a Jesus Freak fellow traveller. At that time I heard a lot of indistinct claims about science actually supporting the Bible (meaning their own particular interpretation of what the Bible must mean, not the actual Bible itself), but I was only presented with two specific claims.
The second claim was a particularly hoary one: in the mid-1960's a NASA computer working with lunar orbit calculations discovered Joshua's "Lost Day" -- when he had commanded the sun to stop in its orbit about the earth. A Christian and a physicist, Dr. Allan H. Harvey, AKA "Steam Doc" (since some of his research was on the properties of water), wrote a number of remarkable essays, which he posted at http://steamdoc.itgo.com/writings.htm, with the "Thoughts on "Joshua's Long Day"
Basically, NASA was supposed to have this program to predict the location of the moon, so they ran it back through time into prehistory, before there were any kind of records of the moon's position (so what the frak for? what possible purpose?), but the program abruptly stopped around 4004 BCE stating that there was nothing before that time. Then as they ran it back forward towards the present, it came up one day short. Nobody there could understand why, until a Christian engineer (yes, they do exist, but that's a completely different discussion) pulled out his Bible and pointed out when Joshua had commanded the sun to stand still so that they could complete the slaughter of that particular battle before the sun had set.
My source, Thoughts on "Joshua's Long Day is a good one. In 2002, Answers in Genesis included it in their list of claims that they wished creationists would stop using (which was opposed by that convicted fraud, Kent Hovind, since most of the bad claims listed were ones that he still used). If you Google on that claim, I feel that I can safely predict that most of your hits will be Christian sites that debunk that claim. It is truly thoroughly bogus.
The thing is that even in 1970, nearly a full decade before anyone actually had any kind of access to a computer, I knew that what that claim was saying about computers was complete and utter bullshit. Even then, I knew that computers were not magical and could not possibly know anything outside of what they were programmed for. No computer could ever possibly know that nothing existed before 4004 BCE, though some human could write a computer program to look for a date before 4004 BCE and display an arbitrary message, chosen by that human programmer, to say whatever the hell he wanted it to say.
What really surprised me happened later. Our local newspaper's Sunday edition included an 10-page magazine insert which I guess was used by many newspapers. Around 1990, that magazine repeated that NASA computer claim, a full decade after a helluva lot of people had had a chance to learn what computers are and how to work with them.
Anyway, that is the claim that in 1970 told me that creationism was not true. The first claim was that living fresh water clams were radio-dated to be thousands of years old. My natural skepticism was augmented greatly by the complete and utter bullshit of the NASA computer claim, so I rejected that claim without knowing anything about it.
A decade later, I learned to my surprise that the creationists were still around, so I looked into their claims, actually expecting to find some kind of there there, and found absolutely nothing except for lies and deception.
I finally found a reference for that fresh-water mollusc claim, so I did the unthinkable: I went to the university library and I looked it up. Yes indeed, those fresh-water clams did indeed yield anomalous ages according to radio-carbon dating. However, the article said things that the creationists decided to not mention at all. The article mentioned that the clams' main source of carbon to build their shells was from the dissolved limestone form their stream's source, a spring from limestone strata. This "reservoir effect " is very well-known (except to deceiving creationists), in which the carbon intake into the organisms under examination comes form old sources. Another example would be marine mammals feeding on organisms who in turn feed on organisms from a deeper depth.
Think about it. Carbon-dating is based on atmospheric nitrogen being converted to C-14 through cosmic ray bombardment. Being chemically identical to C-12, C-14 gets incorporated into organic material and thus can be used to date organic matter.
A few problems here. First problem: what about animals? Do animals take in C-14 from the atmosphere and incorporate it into their body tissues? No! We animals breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon-dioxide. Well, how do we ever take carbon into our tissues? By eating. Plants taking carbon-dioxide and use it to create carbo-hydrates which we then eat either directly or indirectly (ie, by eating an animal who had eaten a plant). In short, a plant takes in C-14 just by being a plant, but an animal takes in C-14 only by being in a food chain that involves plants.
A great number of creationist claims against radiocarbon dating completely ignore the reservoir effect. Therefore, those claims are lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1436 by Faith, posted 04-01-2018 8:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1455 by Faith, posted 04-03-2018 2:22 PM dwise1 has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5952
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1454 of 2887 (830561)
04-03-2018 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1436 by Faith
04-01-2018 8:45 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
Back to Dr. Steve Austin and the ICR's Grand Canyon Dating Project.
As you will recall, Steve Austin has never hesitated to lie about anything. I guess that lying at the drop of a hat is a particularly Christian trait. Kind of like that truism that the difference between a computer expert and a novice is that the novice will hesitate before doing something stupid.
Think about this for a moment. When you have gained a lot of knowledge about gathering samples, you should be able to tell the difference between samples that will yield valid results and samples that will yield invalid results. If your goal is to learn the truth, then you will naturally want to use the results that should yield the valid results. But if your only goal is to support a false position which opposes the truth, then if the invalid results appear to support your claim you will choose it.
One of the things that Dr. Steve Austin has learned is what conditions will yield false results.
There is a troubling practice among creationists. They will find some kind of fossil that they will submit to laboratories for inappropriate testing. For example, there was one Youtube video in which Mr. Kent Hovind had submitted a dinosaur skull for radio-carbon dating and faked surprise that it was dated at about 50,000 years. Hovind kept going on and on about this anomalous age while the video's producer kept superimposing, "There's no f***ing carbon!"
Dr. Steve Austin knows from his extensive education which conditions will produce bad results. So he seeks out those very conditions that will produce bad results, just in order to "debunk" the methodologies of science. The very goal of creationism, to destroy science.
Regarding the Grand Canyon, Dr. Steve Austin had used his education to identify conditions under which the samples collected would give false dates. Knowing that, he actively sought out such samples.
Reference:
talkorigins.org: A Criticism of the
ICR's Grand Canyon Dating Project

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1436 by Faith, posted 04-01-2018 8:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1456 by Faith, posted 04-03-2018 2:33 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1455 of 2887 (830593)
04-03-2018 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1453 by dwise1
04-03-2018 2:02 AM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
The film gives the YEC interpretation of various facts as against the conventional interpretation, and gives the reasoning for it. It's a way to find out the YEC point of view. And it hangs together quite well. It sticks to the most important issues in geology and biology and doesn't go off into the many other issues YECs also tackle. I could have written much of the script myself.
I identified Del Tackett with the Truth Project because that's what I know him for, not because there is any necessary connection with this film that I know of. The Truth Project was a very good presentation of the Biblical worldview.
Why would a presentation of the YEC or Biblical point of view be proselytizing any more than a presentation of the evolution or natural science point of view would be? Don't we have a right to disagree with you?
And of course you do the usual ad hominem attack on Austin and other creationists as if that has anything to do with the substance of the film. Given the opprobrium heaped on creationists I well understand Austin's initial choice to publish under a pseudonym. Big deal.
I'd really like to know Austin's response to the accusation that he was lying when he presented uniformitarianism too literally for your taste. One doesn't normally encounter specific enough descriptions of how a particular layer was formed anyway so the natural thing to do is suppose incremental accumulation. You don't quote him so for all I know you got it wrong anyway.
Austin didn't mention any Dating Project that I recall but I'm going to watch it again so I'll find out for sure. He is being interviewed by Tackett overlooking the canyon and does of course discuss the difference between the YEC view of time and the conventional view, but just in general terms as I recall.
You go on into issues that have nothing to do with the film.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1453 by dwise1, posted 04-03-2018 2:02 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1463 by dwise1, posted 04-03-2018 10:08 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1473 by Percy, posted 04-04-2018 9:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
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