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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1716 of 2887 (831037)
04-11-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1707 by Pollux
04-11-2018 8:41 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I am sure it has been pointed out before that the early geologists went out looking for evidence for the Flood and recent creation, and realised as the evidence accumulated that the only conclusion they could reach was that long ages were involved.
They didn't recognize the abundant evidence for the Flood and they just capitulated to the idea of long ages based on some flimsy logic.
The major periods - Devonian, Silurian etc were worked out quite early because it could be seen that similar fossils occurred in the same order in different areas.
Yes, there is a predictable sequence of fossils. The same creatures were buried at the same level all over the world. Something to do with how the Flood carried them. The idea that the different levels represent successive time periods is unwarranted.
These periods were soon subdivided into stages, again based on the appearance and/or disappearance of particular fossils. There are now about 100 of these stages, many worked out by 1850 and nearly all by 1900.
The human imagination is wonderful, it makes patterns out of anything. That's why some kind of experimental or empirical test is needed to save us from pure imaginative nonsense. But when it comes to the distant past there is no way to apply such tests. You cant replicate single events, all you can do is interpret them.
The fossils in these stages are of all sizes and include plants.
That long ages had to be involved was concluded from looking at the evidence, and not by imposing presuppositions on it.
"Looking at the evidence" was little more than imagining meaning in subjectively defined patterns, like determining that people with smaller skulls were inferior to those with larger skulls. It's just a wild subjective judgment. Hutton, who started the whole idea of enormous time frames, simply took a look at the angular uncomformity at Siccar Point, decided that it had to have been formed in stages, the lower section tilted before the upper was laid down, and concluded that it had to have taken an enormously long time to do that. IIRC he imagined it being underwater for some huge length of time, he imagined a whole series of events in the past that he could not possibly demonstrate. Just pure imagination. All an invention of his own mind. No actual science ever entered into that judgment, no experimental testing, nothing. It's ALL mental conjurings.
When radiometric dating became available, numbers could be applied to the years involved.
And that too is an illusion because while it seems to be a stable method in fact there's a lot of error and there is no way to prove it actually measures time in the distant past. It seems like it SHOULD, but again imagination thinks all kinds of things are real that aren't when there is no way to subject them to a test, and there is no way to test the results of dating, you just have to believe them.
The Flood being able to do this sorting, AND to nicely sort the igneous layers used in dating, defies belief.
The sorting is a subjective judgment reified, an illusion.
Somewhat off topic, but when you throw volcanism into the mix, with chains of volcanoes getting older as you go along them, at a rate consistent with tectonic plate movement, and try to fit in literally more than 100,000,000 cubic kilometres of volcanic products in Large Igneous Provinces into the Flood, it becomes more than a little harder to explain.
Judging from the evidence -- the undisturbed strata over supposed hundreds of millions of years and the massive disturbances to the strata in blocks, I believe volcanism was triggered by one big tectonic event that split the continents, which I think happened at the end of the Flood, after all the strata were laid down. I think it is what caused the Flood to recede by changing the sea floor. I believe that tectonic event accounts for all the disturbances to the strata that we see everywhere, including the angular unconformities. That event started the continents moving apart which is what triggers volcanoes. None of this fits INTO the Flood, but followed the Flood and deformed the otherwise neatly layered world the Flood left behind.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1707 by Pollux, posted 04-11-2018 8:41 AM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1759 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 12:22 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1717 of 2887 (831038)
04-11-2018 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1715 by PaulK
04-11-2018 12:27 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
It didn't. The "order" is an illusion conjured up out of feverish imagination and pasted onto the physical world without justification. It's like Phrenology, as I said a while back, nothing but mental conjurings reified or taken for reality
Oh look Faith is back to denying the physical order of the fossils again.
Perhaps you would like to explain why the observations of the order don’t count as sufficient justification.
The observed predictable physical sequence of fossils is not properly speaking an "order." The idea of an order is imposed on it by the timescale paradigm. The phrase "physical world" refers to the observed predictable physical sequence of fossils.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1715 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 12:27 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1719 of 2887 (831040)
04-11-2018 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1718 by PaulK
04-11-2018 12:50 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
You can use the term "order" but you'll only confuse things, because the "fossil order" is an invention of the timescale paradigm while the mere physical sequence is just random. A sequence of unrelated numbers can also be an "order" in that same sense, but not in the sense of a systematic order. I'm sure you're smart enough to know what I mean. Perhaps you can find better terminology for it because it's all a semantic problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1718 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 12:50 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1721 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 1:09 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1724 by Coyote, posted 04-11-2018 2:53 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1725 of 2887 (831052)
04-11-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1714 by Coyote
04-11-2018 12:20 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
The other methods of dating take you no further back than 10,000 years, such as tree rings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1714 by Coyote, posted 04-11-2018 12:20 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1730 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 3:34 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1741 by JonF, posted 04-11-2018 5:05 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1756 by Coyote, posted 04-11-2018 11:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1726 of 2887 (831053)
04-11-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1724 by Coyote
04-11-2018 2:53 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I'm showing that what you call "science" is nothing but subjective imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1724 by Coyote, posted 04-11-2018 2:53 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1727 of 2887 (831054)
04-11-2018 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1721 by PaulK
04-11-2018 1:09 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Yes, you all insist that the physical sequence of fossils, or "order," and the timescale interpretation of the "fossil order" are synonymous. You can't even really tell them apart because the interpretation is so habitually ingrained by now. I'm trying to show that that's a monumental cheat, that they are not the same thing at all, but just the imposition of a completely unprovable subjective judgment on the reality.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1721 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 1:09 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1728 by jar, posted 04-11-2018 3:24 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1729 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 3:32 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1731 of 2887 (831061)
04-11-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1713 by Tangle
04-11-2018 12:20 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
You know that there are multiple different forms of dating from independent sources that all support the same conclusion about age. You don't address it because you know that you can't.
Radiometric dating is only ONE kind of dating, and it's the only method that justifies your absurd billions of years. Other creationists have shown so much error in the method it shouldn't be taken seriously. The other methods you all use don't point to more than ten thousand years.
We know there was no global flood because it's not there in the geological record.
The Flood IS the geological record, it created the whole geological column, it laid down the strata that have been so absurdly mentally transformed into separate "time periods" in a made-up history of the Earth of billions of years. Biggest illusion ever invented.
I've shown many ways already that the time periods don't work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1713 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2018 12:20 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1743 by Tangle, posted 04-11-2018 5:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1732 of 2887 (831062)
04-11-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1730 by PaulK
04-11-2018 3:34 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
A motley collection of dates, and none of them justify the billions of years craziness.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1730 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 3:34 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1733 of 2887 (831063)
04-11-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1729 by PaulK
04-11-2018 3:32 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Naturally the orders will be the same, by the law of superposition.
Wow, I think that must be the most wacko thing I've heard yet. By the same logic Phrenology also must be synonymous with the observed facts it's based on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1729 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 3:32 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1735 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 3:50 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1734 of 2887 (831064)
04-11-2018 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1728 by jar
04-11-2018 3:24 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I don't know how the Flood did a lot of things, but that's better than you all thinking you know things that are nothing but mental cobwebs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1728 by jar, posted 04-11-2018 3:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1740 by jar, posted 04-11-2018 4:30 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1736 of 2887 (831066)
04-11-2018 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1735 by PaulK
04-11-2018 3:50 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
No, since earlier stuff ends up on the bottom the order from bottom to top is a chronological order of deposition. Funny how you can’t work out something that obvious.
The Flood laid it all down chronologically but only hours or days apart. There is nothing about the chronology that makes it synonymous with the timescale paradigm's billions of years. RFunny how you can't work out something that obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1735 by PaulK, posted 04-11-2018 3:50 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1745 of 2887 (831079)
04-11-2018 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1744 by dwise1
04-11-2018 5:59 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I believe the earth is 6000 years old but I focus on trying to prove the Flood is the explanation for most of the geological facts we see.
the fundamental lie of "creation science" that it's based on science instead of religion.
There is no lie where the focus is on the physical facts in the effort to prove the Flood based on those facts. The lie is on the other side where you insist on the term "religion" to discredit the scientific effort of creationists. If the Bible is true history, as of course YECs believe, it's like any other source of actual fact, on which science can certainly be based.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1746 of 2887 (831080)
04-11-2018 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1743 by Tangle
04-11-2018 5:17 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
No, I don't accept ten thousand or any of the other dates, I was just comparing them to the billions since all those different dates are used by the OE/ToE paradigm. I think all those dates are falsified on the basis that there is no way to confirm them because we can't confirm them because we can't see into the past.
My whole effort is to prove the Flood accounts for the geological column, which I believe I've done many times over by now. And also that variation is built into the genome of each speci9es or Kind and can produce a great deal of diversity within the Kind, but that there is no evolution from one species or Kind to another. I think I've done pretty well with that one too.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1747 of 2887 (831081)
04-11-2018 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1742 by JonF
04-11-2018 5:17 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Dating by any means is only one avenue of evidence and it is all compromised by the fact that it makes assumptions about the distant past that are unprovable. Meanwhile there are many other kinds of evidence, which happen to show that the timescale paradigm is impossible but that a worldwide Flood accounts for most of the geological facts.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 1767 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 3:14 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1748 of 2887 (831082)
04-11-2018 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1741 by JonF
04-11-2018 5:05 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
See previous post. All dating methods are unprovable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1741 by JonF, posted 04-11-2018 5:05 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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