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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1982 of 2887 (831421)
04-17-2018 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1980 by Minnemooseus
04-17-2018 12:16 AM


Re: Grand Canyon stratigraphy not representitive of the Earth as a whole
At the bottom (oldest) is the high grade metamorphic rocks. The conventional appraisal (not "God created with apparent age") is that these rocks were originally sediments that were deeply buried and subjected to quite high temperatures and pressures. High pressure means deep burial - The pressure is the pile of material on top.
Oh I completely agree. And as you say, of course they were originally sedimentary, which is indicated by the sedimentary strata of the Supergroup for one thing. And all those rocks were buried under three miles of strata from Cambrian to Holocene, that's pretty deep, and that pressure generated heat along with the heat from the volcano whose magma fingers are seen in the cross sections extending up into the schist, and which was obviously also the source of the granite alongside the schist, also formed by the pressure of the weight of the stack above. Yes, we agree absolutely, isn't this fun?
Now I don't know the metamorphic grade of these rocks (nor am I a metamorphic petrologist) , but I must think that the burial depth was of the order of many miles.
Oh so do I, and the strata above were laid to at least three miles.
Then this many miles was eroded off (lots of time) to expose the metamorphics to being at the surface. This surface would become the non-conformity.
Well, sadly, now we must disagree, because I believe the Great Unconformity was formed beneath the stack of strata that we see still in place in the Grand Canyon, and the "erosion" is the evidence of friction between those rocks and the underside of the Tapeats when a tectonic force came low from the side and rammed into the then-sedimentary rocks, pushing them up against the Tapeats, which is evidenced by the uplift just above the Supergroup that extends all the way to the Kaibab into which the canyon was cut, also causing the whole shebang to slide for a quarter of a mile at that contact, causing the erosion, and causing the quartzite boulder to move that distance embedded in the Tapeats sandstone {abe: Actually it was the lower rock, not the boulder, that moved}. The only part of the rocks beneath the Tapeats that isn't confined completely beneath the Tapeats is the extra hard Shinumo quartzite which was apparently hard enough to penetrate through the Tapeats while all the other sediments weren't hard enough to do that and so remained confined below. Where the Shinumo is exposed above the Tapeats perhaps it should be understood as the cause of the disappearance of the strata above the Tapeats at those locations.
At the same time all this was going on the pressure and the heat turned most of the sedimentary rock beneath the Great Unconformity into schist and granite. This makes a LOT more sense than the idea that those hard rocks were eroded down to near horizontality.
The metamorphics were then re-covered by the supergroup sediments, which were in turn folded/tilted and faulted, and then eroded. Again, much time needed. This surface that would become the angular unconformity (and it isn't a fault).
The problem with this idea that the Supergroup re-covered the metamorphics is that the actual Supergroup is only present beneath the Great Unconformity in a very limited area while the great majority of the rock beneath the GU is granite and schist. The schist had to have been the result of the heat and pressure transforming the rest of the Supergroup type strata into metamorphic rock, and then there was the magma from the volcano beneath it all that was released by the tectonic force and whose heat contributed to the formation of the schist and rose up to form the granite also seen all over the Grand Canyon beneath the Great Unconformity, and for that matter all over the continent as well and even the world. That all this happened after the strata were in place is shown by the magma that spills out over the exposed layers above, in the Grand Canyon but also at the far north end of the Grand Staircase where the exposed surface is way up at the top of the Claron.
And then you've got the Supergroup being tilted and faulted, but you don't offer an explanation for what caused that. Just a local event of some sort? Don't you think my theory is so much more elegant and explanatory? Then what you explain as surface erosion taking a Looooong long time, a major tectonic event explains easily as friction caused by an enormous jolt from the side pushing it upward while sliding it under the Tapeats, and tilting and faulting it all at the same time, pushing up the entire stack of strata above it all into the Kaibab Uplift, taking a lot less time, while also at the same time releasing the magma from beneath which metamorphosed much of the strata once part of the Supergroup, into schist, and forming the granite as well.
Isn't it lovely?
The supergroup was then covered by Paleozoic and later sediments, of a wide range of depositional environments. More time taken.
Not just the Supergroup, which really doesn't cover much territory, but also the granite and the schist, which somehow or other got planed off to near horizontality by mere surface erosion? But in the conventional paradigm time is magic.
Na, the whole column of Phanerozoic strata was already there when the tectonic force hit, causing not only all the goings on beneath just described but also shaking things up in the upper reaches of the strata, breaking them up down to the Kaibab as the Flood was receding, which washed them all away, much of it into cracks that became the Grand Canyon, and also removing huge amounts in the Grand Staircase area, leaving only the cliffs known as the stairs.
SO elegant, SO explanatory, SO comprehensive. No "depositional environments" and relatively brief time.
The big picture - The Earth's continental crust is a 3 dimensional mosaic of sedimentary, igneous, and metamorphic rocks, all to some lesser or greater degree deformed or otherwise modified by folding, faulting, metamorphism, and other processes.
I agree.
To attribute this vastly complex 3 dimensional mosaic to being entirely the result of a single flood event is silly.
The Big Picture based on the Flood is that there was a lot more to the Flood event than a lot of water. The entire Earth and even the cosmos were all undergoing massive trauma. Events on the sea floor occurred along with the prodigious rain that began the eventful year, the water rose and all life on the land died along with much in the oceans, and was buried in the sediments scoured off the land and churned up from the depths, and at or toward the end of it all the continents split, the plates started moving, volcanoes were released by the movement, the water started receding, mountains started being pushed up by the continental resistance to the movement of the plates deforming much of the just-laid sedimentary strata and so on and so forth.
ALL THE STRATA of the Geologic Column were already in place when this massive upheaval started to occur at the end of the Flood. So much of it was broken up and washed away leaving partial stacks that you misread those areas as caused by different events. Salts in the layers over time collected at the bottom, causing the whole stack of strata to sag into hammock shape, and when enough salt had accumulated it began rising as salt domes up through those strata -- the timing since the Flood is right for that to happen, but millions of years not. There are other places where you can see the whole range of rocks from Cambrian to at least Permian all tilted as a block. Angular unconformities HAD to have been formed at this time too, just had to, and the later tectonic force that pushed up the Supergroup forming the Kaibab Uplift is the best explanation for all of them, buckling part of the strata beneath a weak spot in the stack, often leaving part of the upper stack still horizontally in place. The worldwide extent of the Great Unconformity fits perfectly into this picture.
Yes, the Grand Canyon stratigraphy IS representative of the Earth as a whole.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1985 of 2887 (831424)
04-17-2018 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1983 by Tangle
04-17-2018 6:36 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
But that's kind of silly, Tangle. You almost could replace any of those fossils with any other fossils at any level and you'd still have the same kind of "order." (At least you could exchange some of those in the lower levels with each other, or any trilobite with any other, and I'm not sure it would matter a whole lot if you put mammals before reptiles either). I KNOW there is THAT kind of "order," meaning a series of fossils found up the layers all over the world. What I'm disputing is that that kind of order means anything beyond that, beyond an accidental or random predictable appearance at predictable levels of predictable fossils. It looks like it could have meaning just because of the similarity to the Linnaean groupings, and because it has to look like it has that sort of meaning at least, but you'd have to show that there is some kind of actual functional (not sure that's the best word) relationship between the different levels, something that ties them together beyond their mere predictable location one above another, say increase in complexity or some such principle. Far as I can see there is no increase in complexity and I can't even think of another principle. Genetic relationship is assumed wherever it looks even remotely plausible, but it can't be proved, it remains mere appearance or theory or mental arrangement, and as I've sketched it out it's not even possible between the reptile ear and the mammalian ear..
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1983 by Tangle, posted 04-17-2018 6:36 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1987 by Tangle, posted 04-17-2018 1:55 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1988 of 2887 (831427)
04-17-2018 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1986 by Percy
04-17-2018 1:47 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
A lot of this is nothing but semantics, which is why creationists like the term Kind to designate an irreduceable grouping, and I'm trying to define the Kind in terms of shared structure which can be varied in many ways and still be the same Kind. And that shared structure is what I mean by Species, which I capitalize to equate it with Kind although any terms at all are problematic just because they are all linguistically synonymous. So there is a cat Kind, defined by the fact that the body structure of a lion or a tiger or a bobcat or a tabby is always recognizably that of a cat. Apparently you didn't mean to be saying that as I had thought, but to my mind it makes a good definition. "Species of cat" just confuses things. Of course there are "species" of cats, or "kinds" of cats, but if the aim is to define an irreduceable category of animal, I want to stick to Kind and try to define it in terms of shared structure. By this criterion you can tell a trilobite by its three lobed structure, its bodily shape and all those "feet" they all have. Everything else is incidental variation.
The phylum in which are found the sea cucumber and the starfish and that roly-poly one WAS called a "phylum" in the film, but because of the basic structural similarities of the animals I think the man was saying they should all be classified as belonging to a Kind. That one is difficult because the shapes are so different, but he pointed out the structural similarities that make them kin, all of the same Kind, despite the shape difference: the poisoned tentacles, the way they ambulate by all those tentacles, the location of the mouth in the center bottom of the creature and their division into segments, though different numbers of segments. The question is whether those structural similarities outweigh the differences in shape for classifying them as related to each other as the same Kind, and he was arguing that they do, which seems logical to me. If you found another creature of a different shape with poison tentacles it uses in the same way as those three, mouth in center bottom, and divided into equal segments, it should also be considered genetically related to them, another member of the same Kind.
Using kind as a synonym for species is completely contrary to how you've used kind in the past. Your scenario went like this. Noah collected two of each kind on the ark. After the flood the kinds, relying upon their built-in store of genomic variation, rapidly evolved into all the species we see today. Sound familiar?
You may be reading that in some way I didn't intend but I can't tell, and I'm not even sure I put it quite like that, but I guess it's close enough as long as what I meant can be made clear. The original Kinds would not have been on the ark, but some variety or breed or race of the Kind because of the constant variation or microevolution all would have undergone since the Creation, but yes the two of each on the ark would have had all the genetic ability to vary into every race or breed or variety of that Kind today.
I think I have used Species for Kind at many points too. The problem is that there are limited terminological choices and most of them are linguistically synonymous so other differentiations are necessary though hard to arrive at. You seem to want to classify as genetically separated "species" what I would consider to be varieties of the same Kind but it's hard even to be sure of that given the linguistic difficulties.
If I am the only one having a problem with the terminology it would be due to the fact that I'm trying to define a completely different model or paradigm than yours.
The semantic confusions in your post are just too much. I doubt I can sort it all out and not sure I want to try.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1990 of 2887 (831429)
04-17-2018 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1987 by Tangle
04-17-2018 1:55 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Can you show any kind of actual physical empirical way the fossils are ordered in relation to each other? If not then they remain an order only in theory or mental classification.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1991 of 2887 (831430)
04-17-2018 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1989 by PaulK
04-17-2018 2:28 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
If you can't show any actual relatedness of the fossils in the supposed order, the order remains a mere mental construct and not a physical reality.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1993 of 2887 (831432)
04-17-2018 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1992 by PaulK
04-17-2018 2:39 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
However the fact is that the observed order - which is not merely a mental construct -
In what way? As long as it has no empirical or physical relatedness from one to another in the order it is in fact only a mental construct, a theory.
...strongly agrees with the pattern predicted by common descent. In the absence of any other remotely reasonable explanation for this pattern and given that evolution invokes no unknown processes it makes a pretty good case.
I grant the logic of it and the persuasiveness of the pattern, but it still is only a pattern, and since there is a whole other way of classifying many of the fossils in the "order" as members of separate Kinds without any genetic relatedness between them, and since between many of the classifications evolving from one to another is impossible by many criteria, it remains a theory that looks to me like it has no justification whatever in actual physical reality.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2000 of 2887 (831442)
04-17-2018 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1999 by Percy
04-17-2018 6:18 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Obviously you don't appreciate the problems involved in a paradigm clash for the underdog paradigm. Definitional problems are a huge problem because facts don't have the same interpretation in the different paradigms.
YEC's biological model has separate created Kinds that have a lot of variation built into the genome but can't change beyond the genome. That creates all kinds of semantic and definitional problems in relation to the ToE model of evolution from Species to Species.
YEC also views the Earth as only 6000 years old, and explaining all the facts that standard Geology interprets in terms of millions and billions of years sometimes requires different terminology.
There is no way to use all the ToE and OE terminology to discuss YEC principles. You don't recognize that the terms you use are interpretive, you think they are simply factual but you are wrong and that creates confusion and havoc for anybody defending YEC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2001 of 2887 (831443)
04-17-2018 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1998 by Percy
04-17-2018 6:08 PM


Re: Permian Age et al
It's a matter of doctrine as I meant it. Like a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness claiming to be a Christian. Their doctrine is wrong according to traditional historical Christian theology.
If you just want to call me a bad Christian I will agree with you about that, but probably not about some of your criteria.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2002 of 2887 (831444)
04-17-2018 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1987 by Tangle
04-17-2018 1:55 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
There is static order, like objects arranged in a row according to size, which is the kind the fossil order is. But you think the fossil order implies something dynamic as well, evolution from one form of life to another over time. There is little argument with the first kind of order; it's clear that fossils are found in a predictable order from layer to layer, using the term "order" in the static sense, although there isn't any obvious characteristic like size that links them, or complexity or whatever you think is implied. But when it comes to the interpretation of evolution from life form to life form over time that is not proven and nobody here is saying anything that proves it exists at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2006 of 2887 (831448)
04-17-2018 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2003 by Tanypteryx
04-17-2018 8:44 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
All I meant about predictable order is that the same fossils are found in the same layer everywhere.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2007 of 2887 (831449)
04-17-2018 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2004 by dwise1
04-17-2018 9:04 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Arrangement according to size -- like jars on a shelf arranged from large to small, or shirts on a rack from large to small -- was meant to be an example of a static order, shape would be another, I suppose, or having two, four, six, eight eyeballs in a series could be another. The fossil order supposedly reflects the Linnaean morphological classification.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2009 of 2887 (831451)
04-17-2018 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2008 by jar
04-17-2018 9:48 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I doubt the fossil order reflects much of the Linnaean system in reality. I do keep invoking some unknown principle of sorting by the Flood because I don't think we can know what it is, though I think it certainly at least had to involve marine creatures at the lower levels, progressing up to land animals on the higher levels.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2011 of 2887 (831453)
04-17-2018 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2010 by dwise1
04-17-2018 10:04 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I love my paradigm, and what I wrote to Moose in Message 1982 covers a lot of it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2013 of 2887 (831455)
04-17-2018 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2012 by NoNukes
04-17-2018 10:06 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
You might have a point if your evo fossil order was anything but a mental exercise.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2030 of 2887 (831476)
04-18-2018 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1976 by edge
04-16-2018 11:15 PM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
It's not a simple topic.
That's OK, I don't need to know what chronostratigraphic means.
But it makes it hard to visualize the physical situation, what the land itself looks like where the line is, if there's anything above it and so on.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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